FWIW, I’ve heard commentary that indicates that the so-called “Country Club Republican” segment of the base is willing to moderate their views. In fact, I think that portion of the base has always tended to be more socially moderate anyway and mostly either doesn’t care about and/or actually supports such things as abortion, gay rights, gay marriage (I know quite a few GOPers, myself, who fall in this category). I think this segment is getting thorougly disgusted with the antics of the nutbar fringe, who ends mostly *driving* the policy debates.

That said, I’ve also heard commentary recently that baldly states that the traditional blowhard Con Artists, like Rush & Glenn, aren’t likely to back down from their inflamed rhetoric because they make money from it. Rush & Glenn don’t really give a crap (or mostly don’t) who wins elections & who’s “in power.”

Their power & MONEY comes from infaming their base & getting their base to go along with their hateful, bigoted, racist, homophobic, bitter, twisted, sexist, fearful, nasty, unhinged from any known reality “viewpoints.”

That portion of the base has been so brainwashed with the bigoted lies pumped out 24/7/365 by Fake, etc, that it’s gonna take a miracle to change that point of view. I don’t hold out a lot of hope of “moderation” from the unhinged nutbar racist lunatic fringe that makes makes up the biggest segment of the GOP “base.”

Good luck with that. They don’t really give a shit, either, if their TEAM doesn’t win – I mean it. It seems to me that their lives revolve around being the world’s biggest victims & being hateful & hating constantly. So what better position to hate from than from that of being the LOSER? I’m serious.

As Obama’s pre-”capitulation” on the budget regarding top tax rates helps prove the theory that he is the “more efficient evil,” so does this poll. It demonstrates how another term for Obama helps move the center to the right. How moving the nation further to the right helps advance the quality of life of women and LGBTs, I have no idea. What we have seen so far in the last couple of weeks since the election is precisely what voting against one’s own best interests looks like.

IMO this poll is meaningless unless it was prefaced with the first giving an accurate definition of “conservative” and “liberal”. Most people have no idea what those words mean and for each they convey something different. Almost nobody understands the difference between science and conjecture or why opinion should be given the same credibility as science. Even teabaggers like liberal ideas, as long as you avoid the word “liberal” when describing them.

Are you really going to spend the next four years endlessly repeating yourself and bringing up how very much you hate Obama on every thread, regardless of it’s topic?

I say let them stay with the wingnuts. They will destroy the Repub party and that’s that. They deserve everything they get for being hateful racists and bigots.

This poll is almost worthless.
Of course most Republicans will say they want to be more conservative. The result doesn’t surprise me in the least.
What I want to know is how many Republicans will vote for a republican congressman who votes to support a fiscal package that includes both spending cuts and higher taxes on the 2%, and elimination of certain deductions.

This liberal v conservative debate does nothing for me. The framing is meaningless, and does little to get political deals done (although it does sell newspapers). I want to see more polls that are specifically tailored to issue positions.

You’ll note otto’s refusal to engage your sophistry.

but please tell me, Mags, who appointed you comment moderator?

She has a completely valid opinion, simply stated in the form of a question.

That fact that you don’t like it, and frame it as “moderating” says more about you than you probably like.

“What we have seen so far in the last couple of weeks since the election is precisely what voting against one’s own best interests looks like.”

Why muddy the clear pure honest waters of Democrat vs. Republican with logic and common sense- ?

That time is still 15 years or more off.

For now, this is still the the age of the bipartisan Operation Grand Slam.

Margaret is forecasting an all-too-likely result of the election… even if ottogrendel personally doesn’t fall victim to it, the “I Told You So Syndrome” is hardly something new in politcs.

But, otto, facts… not emotions.

It’s been only a little over a week since the election, not two weeks.

And as of yet Obama hasn’t openly done much of anything beyond continuing his grooming of the chumps for the kabuki yet to come.

Yes, he’s littering his trail with breadcrumbs of foreshadowing but it would be unwise to burn yourself out on outrage so soon over so little… and even less wise to piss potential allies off in doing so.

Because our long national nightmare has only just begun… again.

Only the Veal Pen cares.

What people are not factoring in, is that there is a new political calculus now.

It. Is. Not. All. About. Obama. Anymore.

He has the one thing all presidents want; a second term. None of the rest of the players have the same set of incentives he does anymore.

So opposition, and attention and eyes and all kinds of effort need to be aimed at appropriate targets where pressure can be applied, which is primarily the Senate.

So first round on the Senate class looking for re-election in 2014 is a place for laser focus of attention. Familiarizing oneself with this list will be beneficial in understanding who will do what in advancing any of the nefarious balls up for play.

Are you really going to spend the next four years endlessly repeating yourself and bringing up how very much you hate Obama on every thread, regardless of it’s topic?

I hope that he will. In fact, I wish more liberals/progressives would spend time talking about how much they hate President Zero. That is something I like to see as much of as possible.

I would like to think that the “nutbar fringe” won’t drive the policy debates. But typically, as economic conditions worsen, citizens tend to move to the right. And if the “Grand Bargain” and the continuation of unsustainable consumption are any indication, it doesn’t look like things are going to improve.

You’re right. And it is especially odd that even the right would adopt the attitude of “victims.” Sadly, this indicates a real sense of powerlessness on their part–the same powerlessness that many feel when we see that we have very little control over our political and economic environment.

IMO the victimization of the radical right has been taught to them as part of their brainwashing which makes them more easily led. It emanates from the notion that, as Christians, they are somehow under constant “attack” over their religious beliefs. Sometimes that attack is just personal temptations that lead them to “sin” & turn away from their rules, values God etc. But this somewhat reasonable notion has been corrupted into the concept that evil bad liberals commies Kenyans Muslims etc are out to prevent “good Christians” from practicing their beliefs & “righteous” life styles. This is being simplistic but this notion of Christianity allegedly being under siege in America is very real to a huge segment of the populace. The power of this has been used in various ways to dominate many Christians mainly for charlatans to make money from their fears.

The corp media uses it as a propaganda tool to get them to vote against their own interests based on how sinful & evil liberals are. This has been pushed to the extremes that we see now where people are literally unhinged & truly believe that Obama is a communist Muslim who’s going to force Sharia law on Christians. It’s nuts. But good luck getting these people to see reality at this point.

Some of the PTB seem to be waking up to the fact that they’ve created a monster. The nutbar fringe has driven the extremist bigoted racist sexist homophobic hateful policies of the GOP & it worked against the GOP in the recent election. Some in power logically are saying that they have gotten too extreme & need to be more moderate.

There appears that there may be some tension bet the political establishment & the media giants, which is what I was talking about in my initial post. Rush & Glenn are screaming to the ditto heads to become more radically racist & unhinged & inflexible bc that’s what the ditto heads want to hear. Rush is fluffing his audience bc of money & power for him. The GOP establishment disagrees bc they will continue to lose by encouraging such views. Stay tuned & pass the popcorn.

This is a critical moment for the rightwing establishment IMO.

I haven’t decided yet. Four years is a long time. If I do, why do you care? I will appreciate that for whatever reason you do.

Don’t worry, Margaret. In no way do I hate Obama. In fact when it comes right down to it, I think he is quite inconsequential as not much more than the current public face of corporate power. He is certainly not an object of my hatred. Do you mistake my concern for the rights of women and LGBTs for hatred? Perhaps I have done a poor job of explaining myself?

My concern—where I let my emotions get the best of me, as zapkitty pointed out—is when I see bullshit employed by folks in positions of power to con or otherwise exploit those with less power. The lesser of two evils meme is a con predicated on taking both Romney and Obama seriously and at their word—it means we have taken the red meat rhetoric of Romney (despite his actual political record to the contrary) and the “moderate” rhetoric of Obama as indicative of something real. I suspect that the business interests who bankroll Presidents don’t give a shit about such issues as civil rights, except as they might serve their overriding goal of maximizing profit. The only difference between an Obama and a Romney is the bullshit they tell those who are likely to vote for them. Why would we believe the bullshit rhetoric either spews to their respective audiences?

Related to this topic, buying the Good Cop (i.e. the lesser of two evils) con may very well serve to move the center to the right. If we are concerned with this, it is useful to point it out so that we might better come to grips with it. Are the theories of the lesser versus the more efficient evil not a legitimate topic? Or, once we decide on one should we unreflectively keep to it?

Ye gods, Margaret, you are typically a bright, independent thinker. You got an argument?

But perhaps you are right in that I’m full of shit and on a fool’s errand. If, in the face of all the evidence to the contrary, if someone persists in believing in the lesser of two evils con, if they continue to imagine that the President gives a shit about them, what can I add to the conversation?

I pasted this quote to a recent comment of mine. Maybe it bears repeating.

“The government consists of a gang of men exactly like you and me. They have, taking one with another, no special talent for the business of government; they have only a talent for getting and holding office. Their principal device to that end is to search out groups who pant and pine for something they can’t get and to promise to give it to them. Nine times out of ten that promise is worth nothing. The tenth time is made good by looting A to satisfy B. In other words, government is a broker in pillage, and every election is sort of an advance auction sale of stolen goods.” –H. L. Mencken

And of course there is this:

“It has always been the prerogative of children and half-wits to point out that the emperor has no clothes. But the half-wit remains a half-wit, and the emperor remains an emperor.” –Neil Gaiman

I think the poll may say more about tribalism than it does about liberal v. conservative. Although that tribalism does have an effect on what constitutes moderation.

“I want to see more polls that are specifically tailored to issue positions.”

Good call. Or polls that put things in terms of class interests. I know I have a hell of a lot more in common with my NRA, Tea Bagger neighbors than I do with the CEO of Goldman Sachs who is trying to sell the efficacy of closing tax loopholes.

Very fun. YOu make answers to arguments Margaret didn’t make. What do they call that on the internets?

Yeah. Straw man. That’s it.

Face it. You and warp9, making tribal reponses, in fact the very definition of tribal, without addressing the topic of the post is exactly what you decry in other posts; blind tribalism.

Re-examination of your own responses in light of a new political calculus wouldn’t hurt if you’d bother to attempt it.

Well, I did engage. But I appreciate the support. It won’t be forgotten.

Margaret is alright. It is only my impression, but I suspect her thin skin on some topics causes her to take things personally and then lash out in defense. It’s OK. Hell, we all do that now and then. We’re only talking here.

I make questions too, which is to say doubt–that “face it” admonition. Questions are better than answers.

Also, Margaret didn’t have an argument. I wish she did.

What is my tribe, Canfield?

It’s not emotion. It’s bad math. I just thought it had been two weeks.

“And as of yet Obama hasn’t openly done much of anything beyond continuing his grooming of the chumps for the kabuki yet to come.”

Quite true. I apologize if I suggested otherwise.

I’m not outraged. But you are right, no sense pissing off potential allies for no good reason, and I’ll make an effort to follow your advice. Although, in light of all those who voted for Obama (or Romney for that matter) I’m not yet sure who my allies are.

What is your tribe, Grendel?

The Purity Tribe. Everything is a test of ideology; look at your #22.

What you do not see, is that it is a different political calculus now, and that the President is not at the apex of pressure or importance, yet you must cling to denunciation, where effective measures are elsewhere.

And that is exactly Margaret’s argument, formed in her question and mine, formed in my statements.

“IMO the victimization of the radical right has been taught to them as part of their brainwashing which makes them more easily led. It emanates from the notion that, as Christians, they are somehow under constant “attack” over their religious beliefs.”

Oh, yes. They have that whole “Blessed are those who have been persecuted for the sake of righteousness, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven” axiom going on. What this means is that in order to be a good Christian, one HAS to be a victim. Victimization is a reflection of the voracity of one’s faith. It is a mark of honor. Convincing the dominant group that they are in fact “under siege” by an insidious Other is one of the hallmarks of Fascism http://www.themodernword.com/eco/eco_blackshirt.html .

“This has been pushed to the extremes that we see now where people are literally unhinged & truly believe that Obama is a communist Muslim who’s going to force Sharia law on Christians. It’s nuts. But good luck getting these people to see reality at this point.”

One of the disappointing things about the US, one of the things that makes it so damn boring to live here, is just how many of the citizens are simply scared shitless of everything and nothing, of Obama and Romney, of their neighbors (Do you know that people in many other countries pick up hitchhikers? Can we as USians even imagine that?), of people in countries they have never even been to. Fear literally shuts down thought and empathy. It intellectually and emotionally cripples the person who gives in to it.

“Some of the PTB seem to be waking up to the fact that they’ve created a monster.”

Good call. That is one of the very interesting things about the fundie right wing: Will Dr. Frankenstein be able to control his creation?

“There appears that there may be some tension bet the political establishment & the media giants . . .” etc.

Businesses–and the political establishment that represents them–are conservative only to the degree that they are interested in profits and are risk averse. Anecdotally, in my job, which is basically to help poor and multicultural students get through college, I work with a program generously funded by agricultural firms. These corporations are in no way liberal or progressive. But they understand very well that racism and similar irrational hatreds impact their bottom line.

“This is a critical moment for the rightwing establishment IMO.”

I suspect you are right.

I’m not an ideologue, though you are free to imagine that is the case. My comment about allies, which I meant far less seriously than perhaps you have assumed, is a practical consideration, not an ideological one.

The purity challenge functions as a way to rationalize a weak act. By pretending that to do otherwise is the impossibility of perfection, one absolves themselves from doing more.

I don’t see a lot of things. But one thing I do see are folks who not very long ago suggested that it was wise to vote for Obama so that he could be forced to the left upon reelection because doing so would be easier if he were a Dem (“Gimme a break – I don’t think any prez candidate is worth a damn, and for me it’s about choosing the one I think I can influence after the election. The actual election winner. –Canfield), who are now saying that the President is inconsequential. You are moving the goalposts to justify your ideas and I’m the ideologue?

Again, I have no hatred of Obama. So there is no argument on that erroneous count.

Face it. You and warp9, making tribal reponses, in fact the very definition of tribal

If you are referring to the “I-can-NOT-stand-presidents-who-assassinate-US-citizens” tribe, then yes, I guess it just might be tribal. :D

If we must have tribes, you can count me in that one.

What is sometimes difficult for some folks to see is that oppression in any form is typically cut from the same cloth. Employing the Fuehrerprinzip to carry out extra-judicial murder is directly related to quashing civil liberties domestically. One undermines their own interests in attempting to separate the two.

To be a little more clear on a few points:

Most of those who did not buy into the lesser of two evils rationalization never accorded much importance to the President. But those who imagined that they could force the lesser of two evils “left” very likely did, or else there would be no point in the fear-mongering promotion of that philosophy. Or, I never thought that the President was the “apex of pressure or importance,” that was the purview of the folks who insisted on voting for him.

But I understand your point: I’m living in the past. But the reason that it is important to assert this is because it supports your idea that Obama is now irrelevant, despite your previous lesser-of-two-evils stance.

Needing to promulgate another rationalization in the face of the emptiness of the last rationalization perhaps indicates that the validity of the more efficient evil theory is not anachronistic.

The tea baggers who want to seceed or start a second revolution would have been on king george’s side during the american revolution, fighting those damn liberal patriots.

What I want to know is how many Republicans will vote for a republican congressman who votes to support a fiscal package that includes both spending cuts and higher taxes on the 2%, and elimination of certain deductions.

I’d kind of like to know that, too, but is either of us likely to find out? There won’t be a proposal that includes spending cuts. There may be a proposal that includes the possibility of a deceleration in the rate of increase of spending some years down the road, subject to later cancellation. As for the elimination of deductions, there seems little hope of getting rid of the mortgage and state-and-local income tax deductions that so heavily favor the blue states. I’d love to see them go away, too, but neither party will push it.

IMO the victimization of the radical right has been taught to them as part of their brainwashing which makes them more easily led.

Any group that is taught to feel victimized is more easily led. Do you honestly think this is a process visible primarily among conservatives?

Yes. Most definitely.

Although the FEAR card is definitely also used on Democratic voters. IMO, though, I don’t see progressives, esp those of us who didn’t vote for either of the 2 Oligarchy candidates, as being as easily led around by the nose in some alternate reality as I see those who immerse themselves in the corp-owned propoganda wurlitzer 24/7/365.

Say & believe what you want, there is simply NOTHING like the righwing media on the left. NPR is very conservative these days, and the few shows on MSNBC are peanuts in comparsion to the tsunami of bullshit hype on AM Talk Radio & Fox Noise.

Trad-Dem voters and progressives are far less influenced by the propoganda-wurlitzer bc there’s nothing comparable to the rightwing noise machine. Not even close. Ergo, less brainwashing, less fear, more tracking on actual reality.

Buy a clue, my friend: unplug yourself from Fake & Rush. Set yourself free to think for yourself.

Just in case you haven’t read it (top link): http://home.cc.umanitoba.ca/~altemey/

Them not moderating is a good as it can accelerate their loss of popular strength.

Look at Romney’s closing assessment: Obama won by making big gifts.
Romney’s whole campaign and base for running was a gift to oppression and the wealthy. When he was talking about the 47% he was saying not only that he didn’t represent them but there was a sense of impending punishment for those that did not support a right of oppression. A sense of punishment for those who wouldn’t step aside and accept the gross imposition.

These are plantation fools. Going forward it may be possible to run straight against the party and what it stands for. Its core value is inequity, that is what it stands for and what it represents. Its been exposed and we have to make sure people don’t forget it. It can’t be allowed to soft peddle or revision or claim that it could ever represent a change. It will always represent a regression. Could the KKK ever be reformed- it same for the GOP- its dangerous for the same reasons.