George W Bush was there last night. He came out and gave Bill Clinton a hug after his speech.

Meanwhile, was Al Gore snubbed by the Democratic Party? Not invited?

One interesting point, Clinton actually managed to get the audience to give a round of applause to Bush, illustrating everything that’s wrong with the modern Democratic party.

…illustrating everything that’s wrong with the modern Democratic party.

I.e., that it’s become a branch of the Republican Party?

Anybody else feeling a strong chill today as the play progressives come home to roost in ever stricter party-line fashion? Did I just misjudge all along?

Where do others like me who more fundamentally refuse to accept the status quo go for their daily news? What site might I consider replacing this with as my first stop on the internet?

You get the sense that FDL has gotten into the veal pen?

No

Last night with his speech at the Democratic National Convention Bill Clinton reminded everyone why he has been such a successful politician.

Bill Clinton was the smartest President in decades and runs circles around Obama. Obama was sold as the next Bill Clinton intelligence-wise, but now with people who actually work with him, he’s negatively contrasted with Clinton. I loathed the Clinton Presidency, but President Clinton was a genius who actually played and won multi-dimensional chess instead of it being merely a PR gimmick with Obama.

Al Gore is having a private party with his running mate, in Jerusalem.

Here are my two recent faves.

One.

Two.

I am not happy with the program, but honestly, as a woman, I am not going to sit back or vote 3rd party. I would like to believe that we can believe in the beliefs that we have heard some of from the Democrats this week. And I will say again that I am so unhappy about being thrown under the bus that I would like to throw in the towel. But I won’t. As I tell the polling people who call me, I will vote for Obama and some other Democrats with little or no enthusiasm. But I will vote, and I will vote for them, even if it mainly a vote against the Other.

What do you expect from someone trained by the CIA?

Knox, is that true about Bush and Clinton?

It’s getting so crazy it’s hard to know what’s true and what’s snark. That Bush would be banned from the GOP Kabuki opera, and show up at the Dem version and get a little sugar from Bubba is just too bizarre.

In the movie, “The Prince of Tides”, I think it was Nick Nolte’s character, Tom Wingo, who said, at the end of the movie:

“In families, there are no sins past forgiving.”

updated 2012 political version:

“Among similar corporate ass-kissing parties and their former leaders, there is no sin, or enmity, past forgiving.”

Yeah but I thought that Obama had an even longer training with CIA, so whaddup wid him?

I have to agree that, insofar as intelligence & speechifying goes, Clinton can run marathons around Barry Zero without breaking a sweat but easily breaking any marathon records that Paul Ryan lays claim to.

Typed earlier but worth repeating here.

William Lloyd Garrison thought it was immoral to vote as long as slavery existed.

The way the USG is being run today, it is immoral to vote.

I was on the front lines of women’s struggle for 30 years. I recognize when the war has been lost.

Jon, was discussing this last week. Isnt W the still the titular head of the party? In all my years of following politics I dont think a past president has been swept under the rug so. You probably have to go back to Nixon in 70s. It reminded me of ancient Eqypt when they would cut the heads off statues and deface muruals when a pharoah was a total wanker.

Thanks. Have put them in my favorites. FDL is still worthwhile but ever more in the Veal Pen, if I say so myself, esp certain parts of it. Oh well, at least mostly written intelligently. There is that.

I was talking about O. CIAers are mostly incompetent.

I’ve not investigated Bill’s CIA training.

I don’t think W was “swept under the rug.” I think he’s been pie-eyed drunk in Dallas for the past 3+ years. The Thugs simply cannot get him sober enough to appear on stage. Not snark.

Ideology captures the intelligent and unintelligent alike.

Oh. Got it. My bad! ha ha

Well some have posited that Slick Willie got tapped by the CIA when he did that WhiteHouse visit & shook hands with JFK. I have no idea if that’s just snark or what??

I agree with you, that it has become a branch of the republican party. It’s why, if I were a fatcat gooper, I would have been in Tahiti or somewhere, instead of worrying about what was going on at either convention.

And, I don’t think we’re in the veal pen, but the act of voting for a republican is out of the question for a lot of people, including myself, and there is a lot of pressure; increasing pressure, to stop talking about the reality of Barack Obama and what he’s done and not done, and just focus on the republican wingers.

I live in fear that David and Kevin and a few others will jump ship, or be forced to, and abandon us to the “O” mousketeers.

Yes, there is the moral high ground. But I am not going there, except insofar as being regularly available as “arrestable” which is something I feel I can do now. I am not giving in on the war on women. I don’t think we have lost it, and I am going to keep fighting.

Thought it was pretty gag producing for Ledbetter to appear. It’s bad enough she let herself be used by having legislation named after her, legislation that has not been and never will be enforced.

I knew that trad D constituents would be just delighted with crumbs, and so they are.

Yuech. Barf. Glad I left after about 20 minutes and MISSED that! OMG. Unsurprised. Slick Willie & HilBot have long been in cahoots with the Bush Crime Syndicate. Guess Poppy probably handsomely paid off the HornDog to give a shout out to his drunken scum-bum-son. bleah.

Aha. Hadn’t seen or heard that.

Spent enough time in the conspiracy sites for now. And Bill’s a has-been so not gonna spend time on him anymore.

I think Bubba is bright; no argument on that, but I think he had/has an undeniable ability to commit a major brainfart, which he did when he got on that jag of going after Obama in the campaign, and it backfired. And of course, even Rhodes scholars sometimes think with their scrotal sac.

You can’t accuse him of being “coruscatingly brilliant” when he just sat there and watched while Hillary listened to her two house-idiots and made the political mistake of the campaign, by thinking that she could win the nomination by tracking right.

Oh yeah. My roommate has been over the moon for the past 2 days. Almost cannot control herself by all the pretty speechifying.

The only thing that I’ve found interesting so far between the 2 dog and pony shows “conventions” is Clint Eastwood talking to that chair. No kidding, I actually kind of liked that. But I’m “into” performance art, so it was down my ally.

The rest is just hot air, LIES of epic proportions (on both sides), bullshit, hype and pandering. barf. leave me out of it.

Are you honestly claiming FDL does not criticize Democrats enough? Must every single story be an elaborate critic of actions? Is sometimes simply conveying interesting news, developments, or analysis unacceptable?

Yeah, who knows? Could be. Bubba is certainly fast friends with Poppy Booosh, who is the Chief Spook, so you do the math. My take? Clinton is certainly *very happy* to suck up to the Bushes. That’s enough for me. If not “trained” by the CIA, he’s certainly Ok with it.

Clinton is a has-been, but useful to the 1%. He’s down their ripping off and enslaving Haiti for ‘em.

I’m saying that the basic assumptions about necessary change are ameliorative, that diaries like this and many of Dayen’s tend to take for underlying assumption that the Dem Party is or can be the vehicle for change, if only these politicians act better.

The interesting thing about the bio of Garrison I’m in the middle of reading is how women’s rights got tied into the abolition movement. Garrison was a purist, which has its drawbacks, but also has its benefits. He saw early on that women should be included at meetings, as speakers, and in every way as equals.

Black men got the vote in the 1860s. B&W women in the 1920s….

Bill came out to remind us why not enough independents voted for Gore such that the Conservative Justices could steal the election. Mr NAFTA, Mr WTO, policies that lead to economic melt down.

Obama promised new leadership and once elected hired old Clinton cronies and corporate criminals.

Great for rallying the die hard Democrats but the wrong move to get independents who are tired of both corporate parties.

On the other hand Elizabeth Warren should have been the keynote speakers because she gets the failure of the establishment rigging the system.

May I respectfully disagree? Bill Clinton won’t be a has-been when he’s dead. Politics has been a large part of my life – I love it and Clinton is an amazing politician. He’s far from perfect but he touches people in a way not seen since JFK. And, no, I won’t be voting for Obama.

“although the economy is still bad, it is better ”

On some other planet maybe.

Counterpunch.com is the site you are looking for. No comments, just good articles. It’s left without compromise.

You may certainly disagree. That’s fine. There’s plenty of space for different opinions.

I quite agree that Clinton has an *amazing capability* as a great communicator, which really does “touch” many in a way that I’ve never witnessed in my lifetime, not even with JFK (who I saw in person once).

That said, I am disgusted with him (speaking for myself) bc I think Clinton sold out a long long time ago. The man speaks with “forked tongue,” and sorry to say, he’s just not that into you, bc you (I am guessing) are in the 99%, not the 1%.

That’s my take. Like minds may disagree. Best to you.

Thanks, eCAHN, familiar with both. The BAR: indispensable. Do you know anything about the provenience of the other?

Don’t you think that you deserve, and we can do better than the Uniparty?

Just had two links in a row to a Madsen report about O’s mother in Indonesia fail to show up here. Not gonna be paranoid–stuff with links has to get cleared, is that how it works?

Frederick Douglass actually did much to advance women’s rights as the same group of people who supported the end of slavery basically turned tail when it came to women’s rights. Douglass was a key player at Seneca Falls because not only didn’t he turn tail, but he affirmatively advocated.

Elizabeth Warren is now part of the problem, not the solution.

Al Gore “lost” bc the Bush Crime Syndicate effected a bloodless coup. It had absolutely nothing to do with Independents not voting for him, despite Bore’s very very very poor performance on the campaign trail. Nor did Nader cause Gore to “lose.” That’s the most pernicious lie that is touted by the right & left, alike. Done to keep 3rd parties from ever having any kind of “say” in our bought & sold “two party” system.

Gore didn’t lose. The Bush Crime Syndicate hijacked the election. John Roberts got paid off by being appointed Chief of the SCOTUS.

Thanks–yes–familiar with it. But a site that really keeps abreast of daily developments? The morning summaries here are indispensable, not dissing them!

Sure vote Democratic. Just like the progressives voted for Mussolini and Hitler. Enabling fascism by clinging to delusion. Obama is a fascist, warmongering war criminal destroying the Bill of Rights, Clinton caused the current economic meltdown by giving our jobs to China via NAFTA m deregulated the banks by removing Glass/Steagal and opened the door to Fannie Mae to lend money to people who clearly could not afford a home. Clinton sold out to China and Obama sold out to Wall Street, both sold us out to rule by multinational corporations. The rest is just propaganda designed to get those who insist on remaining deluded to vote Democratic. If BO wins, tell me how great it is that people are being arrested for criticizing the government and drafted into WWIII. Tell me how wonderful it is when BO revives antisocial laws, like Hitler, filling the empty prisons ready and waiting with your neighbors and maybe even you.

“On the other hand Elizabeth Warren should have been the keynote speakers because she gets the failure of the establishment rigging the system.”

Not even the Democrats are that cynical (or maybe they’re too stupid) to try a scam like that. They weren’t even able to pull of their Israel platform scam off right, so they’d totally mess up pretending they aren’t the establishment.

He is a disgusting sell out and sexual predator, but a good snake oil salesman.

Eh? The economy is fucking fantastic if you’re in the 1% like HornDog Willie. Sucks to be you. Too bad, so sad, get used to it (which what I “got” from that line).

If you want to see W in politics today, watch whats happening in Charlotte this week, they’re about to propose his fourth term.

JFK had a scummy side.

I was around 20 when he was shot. Gotta admit I had been taken in by the Kennedy Camelot when I was young & naive.

After that, I was fond of saying that I never voted for POTUS, just voted against the other guy.

You appear to be a minority of one around here. But I think you are right. Hang in there.

…”I would like to believe that we can believe in the beliefs…”

Cast the runes too.

I’m speaking of politicians – not their morals or their policies. Just plain politics which I happen to eat, sleep, and breathe. If we can ever get a real politician, like Clinton, and good policies together, we’ll have a very special person in charge.

What war has been lost? Women have more freedom and rights in this country than any other except the enlightened European countries. When I was 16 I was told the only occupations open to me were secretary, nurse or teacher. My parents refused to pay for college because they felt it was wasted on women. I grew up in Bubbastan, moved to the big city and ended up running big tech divisions for Fortune 500 companies, a self-made woman in a business world that wanted anyone who could deliver. I delivered. Free, affluent, and able to speak my mind at least for now, I am wondering what war on women I missed along the way. The one in Bubbastan I guess that has been ongoing for 10,000 years. So if you are in Bubbastan, leave. Otherwise, WTF?

The kind of political system from whence such a “real politician” would spring and the “good policies” that I would advocate are mutually exclusive.

Exactly! Acknowledging Bush’s PEPFAR, a program that massively increased access to antiretroviral drugs in Africa and cut the AIDS death toll by 10% in targeted countries, is precisely the same thing as embracing the Republican platform. Clinton and the Democrats are monsters!

Roosters crow, hens deliver.

presstv.ir comes out of Tehran. I’ve been watching it for 2-3 months.

One bias is in topic selection. It chooses topics that make Iran look good and make the U.S. look bad. But once it chooses a topic, it does an excellent job of covering it. Lots of coverage of “occupy,” more than you would find in any corp or lefty media in U.S. U.S. police brutality.

Hard to judge coverage of Syria bc no one really knows what is going on. What we do know for sure is that BBC and al jaz are straight govt propaganda on the topic.

I made up my mind about Syria fairly early on with the help of tarpley.net and voltaire.net. Syria was modeled after operation ajax which overthrew Mossedegh. The Syrian updated version was supposed to be over within weeks. The fact that Assad seems to have been prepped for it and is somewhat more than the feckless optometrist the west makes him out to be, is fairly amazing.

The original ‘opposition’ was a CIA setup. It would have fallen apart by now were it not for weapons & training provided by Vile V.

Looks to me like the only previously know insurgency to be put down, the one in Malay. That one was waged by ethnic Chinese, about 10% of pop, and they were hated by locals who would give them no succor and who turned them in.

Syria seems to be the same. Locals hate the insurgents, who are pretty awful characters, and turn them in to the Syrian govt, why is why they army know what buildings to attack.

Yes, this is a contradiction of the system. (In fact, having lived in Ireland, England, and Spain, I would have to say that women may be farther along here than in those not always so “enlightened Euro” etceteras.)

But women’s progress has economic underpinnings, right? And it has aided corporate growth both by expanding the consumer base and lowering labor costs. The “war lost” is that women, instead of becoming a force for greater change, also buy in like everyone else, including–often–to their own sexual exploitation.

Well, one could say that someone’s “morals” is what makes the politician be the way they are.

I don’t give a stuff about how many adulterous affairs JFK & Clinton had, frankly.

But Clinton is an amoral sleaze willing to sell himself out to the highest bidder at MY expense. That’s why I don’t like him, nor do I trust him.

All that stuff is being reeled in.

The only women who are allowed on a national stage are those who have sold their souls.

Women never got very far on Wall St. A few token partners, relegated to the pink collar part of the biz, like S&L govt bonds, just like black guys.

Women earn 72 cents on the dollar. That’s a long way from equal.

I have been politically active since a teen. I am very discouraged, but I am not giving up. For all those who are advocating 3rd party, I hope you are taking your personally printed campaign lit door to door. One in 12 voters comes from door knocks, while mail and phone calls deliver one per hundreds of “contacts” that way. If you are simply going to vote for a 3rd party but are not actually door-knocking, I am here to say “that dog don’t hunt.”

This is not my opinion, it is a fact. It is easy to sit home at the computer and type all day about the 3rd party. Get to work, people! Internet talk is cheap, worth pretty much nothing, and that is also not an opinion.

Strong points. Better than mine! Have a good afternoon, all!

heh… a-yep. And W can just smile as he downs another drink! This here’s easy for W! He don’t even have to show up and pretend he’s POTUS. Can just drink himself into a stupor every day in the Big D. Saw-weet!

How do we know W’s now a wet drunk?

Just asking out of curiosity.

Forget it, Jon.

It’s Chinatown Nothing Is Ever Good Enough Town

Haven’t been paying attention?

To be fair, all the men allowed on the national stage have sold their souls as well. So I guess there’s some “equality” in that. It’s just that the men usually get a bigger share of the pie.

I agree with both you and Lindy. Women HAVE made great strides, but what I see is rapidly shrinking opportunities for women.

Lindy mentions how nursing used to be one of the main occupations open to women back in the day. Guess what? Due to the lousy economy, nursing is rapidly turning into a male-dominated prof. Women, sad to say, will live to *envy* women back in the day who such easy access to that prof.

As the available jobs decrease, we are likely to see women pushed more and more into “pink” ghetto jobs, esp in low-paying service sectors. I have a very part-time job in a service organization, where the preponderance of employees are females. Worked for this org. for over 15 years and have witnessed a *rapid* decrease in pay & benefits over the past 4 years. It’s very obvious, but most of the female-dominated workforce has been cowed under by nasty middle managers who wield the whip & get you fired if you speak up. No joke.

Witness the recent WAR on Women in terms of reproductive rights. It’s not just the Republicans who are trying to cow women under and force them to accept that rape really doesn’t happen, and if you get pregnant, just stfu and deal with it. Easier to manipulate & dominate 51% of the populace if they have few choices and options. If women are pregnant, then they’ll have a harder time competing for jobs.

Wake up. It’s happening.

Women were “permitted” by the PTB to get ahead when the going was good. The PTB needed western educated women in the workforce at one time. Just like at the end of WWII when the PTB told Rosie the Riverter to STFU and go home and make babies, so that MEN could have the jobs… that’s exactly what’s happening now.

Younger women, sad to day, are doing almost nothing at all about it, either. Those of us in the Boomer generation can only push this boulder for so long. If the younger generations don’t give a shit about giving up their rights, well then… good luck.

Have you seen him lately?

I haven’t.

I’m spreading viscious rumors, but really? That’s my true guess. I think he’s out of it. Remember his behavior at the Chinese Olympics?

Third party n America is just a wasted vote. Better to stay home.

I have said the same thing about the younger women. I do know a lot of young women who totally get it and are active and going after these issues full-bore. And it was great to see that Sandra Fluke got a prominent speech time, even though I did not see it. It is not entirely abstract. When “your boss” gets to decide your access to birth control, we really are fucked.

We just need a newer sparkle pony.

I have something to contribute to the debate. Or rather Rushbo Limbaugh weighs in on Clinton speech. Get it, “weighs” in. But Rush was commenting on Big Dog’s mannerisms. He also said Bill Clinton would “do it” with Martians. That is just projection.

If I were a woman that bony finger would give me chills..

Clinton would know how to do it with Martians.

I don’t say stay home, if people want to vote that way, better than not voting. It is the exercise of the vote that is most important, IMO. But for people to sit around here pontificating 3rd party and not get out and promote their candidate door to door, that is crap.

If we can ever get a real politician, like Clinton, and good policies together, we’ll have a very special person in charge.

Money will always prevent that.

Fluke did a good job too. IMO.

Well whatever exists of the women’s movement these days has been shut out of the media cycle, like any other movement that benefits the 99%.

That said, I see an alarming amount of what appears to me to be vapid acceptance of the status quo by younger women, who say stuff like “it doesn’t matter,” or “I would NEVER want to be feminist – ick!!” and similar.

I watch all these rights being ripped away, and there’s these younger women playing games on FaceBook… easily distracted by bright shiney objects. Really sad and really frustrating.

Once again, he is trying to promote his fatty fingers/fatty self as appealing. Sorry. Rush only wishes he could get any kind of action at his fingertips. Bony works, fat don’t cut it. I think Clinton has never looked better, and I think it is the vegan diet. More power to him and his bony finger, or whatever.

I never expected a sparkle pony (or whatever).

I get a little tired of that meme.

You make good points.

My judgement that women lost the war came in a blinding flash somewhere around 1/2-1 year ago. It was when I woke up to the observation that women’s control over their own bodies were being taken away so fast it makes your head spin and no one’s talking back.

I’ve been analyzing foreign policy and I finally figured out there that the nutsy crazy stuff was really happening.

Ditto womens’ rights.

It fits. Get over it.

Have to agree that Clinton did look very good and healthy; the vegan diet has clearly helped him get healthy and stay in shape.

Rush is a jealous asshole, per usual. In other news, the sun rose in the east.

I should introduce you to my young women FB friends. They rock. And they have a lot of friends I don’t know who rock with them. And there are some great young men I feel like I can count on too.

With respect, I disagree, and I think there’s room for some disagreement. If you don’t, so be it.

I never had “high hopes” or unreasonable expectations AT ALL. I think discussing short-comings and outright failures is reasonable, not childish.

If like minds cannot disagree, and I cannot speak my truth, that really is too bad.

Glad to hear it. For various reasons, I’m not on Facebook but good luck to them.

Yes, agree. It began with Bart Stupak and went rapidly down hill from there. The whole “lock” with the pederast RC Bishops over birth control & abortion is not by accident.

The reversals happened very rapidly and my conjecture is that it has all be very well orchestrated behind the scenes.

Have a great day, everyone! I have been hanging around the internets because I have a “campaign” of my own right now that I need to monitor. I’ll put up a post after another couple of days. But I got a lot to do, so see you all later. I won’t give up the fight.

Gore had Lieberman as a running-mate.Possibly the dumbest thing he could possibly do.

Ok, how often do you find anything positive about Obama and something negative about them guys? Most everything I read here is searching for,that fuckng sparkle pony., like a childish world. Just my opinion ok?

Most everything I read here is searching for,that fuckng sparkle pony., like a childish world.

Then don’t read.

How the fuck will I find that sparkle pony then?

with a lot of knowledge comes a lot of sorrow.

this is the curse of the Intelligent Left

keep in mind 99.99% of things the Intelligent Left says is Correct.

However with corporate media, and the 1% trashing free speech, makes it very hard for the truth to survive.

the Intelligent left knows, that Dems and Gopers practice a lot of Kabuki Dancing.

A lot of us thought Obama would be the next FDR, JFK, etc. well that did not happen!

Clinton gave an awesome speech last night! no question

we can call Bubba a lot of names, but when it comes to playing the Game, which is what USA politics has become, he is the Michael Jordan of Dem Politics!

no one does it better than Bubba.

I disagree with Bubba on numerous of issues, but I have to give him his props.

Getting back to Obama and the CIA–I see zero direct evidence, and I looked. His mom worked for Rand in Indonesia after the massacres, and that perhaps amounts to the same thing, formal ties or no. (Some of this was at counterpunch, I believe.) I have seen suggestions about the family being used as a conduit for programs that brought young intellectuals from countries where we were battling communism for “education.” Anyone got anything solid, though? I’m not even sure WHY he would need or want to go that route in formal terms myself. I read Madsen and I find a careless line here or there that suggests he’d be easily discredited.

Good choices.

I would also add bilmon’s old site for foreign affairs:

http://www.moonofalabama.org/

as well as this for domestic, as well as financial info:

http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/

and this for I-P issues:

http://mondoweiss.net/

Drugs?

I agree with that. Shit I had a fella call me today for money for Obama. I laid into him pretty good. Told him no money and maybe no vote.

Know the first two; mondoweiss looks wonderful. As the nephew and intellectual offspring of an anti-Zionist Polish Jew raised in a Trostkyite collective in upstate NY, I am starved for such perspectives!

“Black men got the vote in the 1860s. B&W women in the 1920s….”

Where I hail from, neither black men nor black women got it until the 1960′s.

Yeah, mondoweiss is a great site, one that has actually made some difference in the national debate I think.

Linking to mondoweiss or citing it is banable at dailykos, lol.

I don’t know why people who don’t live in swing states bother with this lesser-of-two evils nonsense. A million more votes for Obama in Illinois or Vermont is not going to change anything in Ohio. And if it gets close in Illinois or Vermont, it’s already completely over for Obama.

If the vote went 60-30-10 instead of 68-32, at least there’d be a shot of opening up some discussion.

I’m positive they don’t sell any of that around here. Someone told me that. It comes with the sparkle pony you know.

Ok, how often do you find anything positive about Obama

Well maybe if he actually did something positive, like, I don’t know, see to it that banksters are held accountable for their Mafia-like business practices or implementing a foreclosure and prevention and loan forgiveness program that wasn’t just window dressing and using the federal government to create some jobs and demand in the economy then folks might actually write about it here. But if he’s content to spend his time fellating plutocrats, spreading his butt cheeks for John Boehner, killing civilians in the Middle East with drone attacks and prosecuting whistle blowers then I guess you’re just going to have to get used to the negativity. Take it up with Obama if it bothers you so much.

Just so you’re happy, let me say that Mitt is worse. I think.

That makes me happy. I think.

Last night it was all women’s issues and rights, yet the DNC saw it fit to also featured a man who has a reputation of mistreating women… odd contrast but it seemed to work okay.

Bill Clinton did a great job of arguing in favor of President Obama, he also reminded everyone of his economic record, which might have made some people wish he was running this year instead of President Obama.

The big story of the DNC last night was God.

I live in Los Angeles, and my Mayor asked the convention 3 times to vote on restoring God to the DNC Platform 3 times! on National TV!
3 times he was shouted down, he looked confused and stunned!
Finally he just declared the amendment passed.

I’m sure these sounds and images will be played over and over again by the GOP.
In a country where over 90% believe in God, it’s going to be tough to overcome those sounds and images of voting to deny God 3 times.

I think President Obama should make a point tonight to rebuke the DNC for their disrespect of God, or else I don’t see how he can win this election.

I disagree that “most” here are childish and looking for the sparkle pony. Just my take, though.

I enjoy TBogg’s site often (not always), but I refrain from going there to whinge about Obama, and I think you’ve probably noticed that. I enjoy Tom’s snark and way with words. I also enjoy, sometimes, engaging in snarky dissing of some of the rightwing dolts in the “media.” That’s just me; not everyone would enjoy that.

I don’t agree with some of Tom’s perspectives about Obama, but again, I respect him and his right to have his viewpoints. As mentioned, I stay away from turning into a troll hijacking some of the hijinx to vetch about Obama.

With respect, I suggest you consider what some say here about Obama. It’s truly not simplistic or childish. As opposed to some of those rightwing idiots, people here mostly engage in facts as they are. Like minds can certainly disagree about the facts and/or your viewpoint on them. But we are dealing in facts, not something made up or pulled out of our buttcheeks.

Just saying…

Thanks for the discussion (I’m late now; hadda go & came back).

FWIW, I also think Mitt is worse.

With respect, I disagree with you, but we had a respectful “discussion” about this yesterday.

No one was “denying God.” If that’s your take, then consider that again.

Constituents voted against that proposal bc of the sepearation of Church and State that is alleged to be inherent in our system of govt, plus was what the founding fathers were all about.

No one was “denying God.” Stick with facts, please.

Good catch.

If you want to list an array of things he coulda, shoulda or woulda done,I can make my own list. Heaven knows he has not made me happy. But a couple of quick viewpoints. First the alternative is fucking a hundred times worse IMO. Second, there are nuances in many of his negatives which would take too long to elaborate and third, he took over at a time we really were headed to a depression. You may remember that Pelosi, a democrat, had to help pass TARP. (I am not convinced we had too but…)Bush had all but given up and was looking for the door. He really did do what Clinton said and that was to establish a floor. The first stimulus was not enough. But by the time 2010 rolled around there was no way you could get another and so he settled for unemployment and SS tax breaks. I’ve now rambled on more than I intended. But too many people just think all he had to do was snap his fingers and the sparkle pony would appear. Not so,not even close.

Ok but see my post at 108.

The pony meme still had some giddyup when I last visited Kos several years ago, and was often used in an attempt to stifle dissent. .

But when billions went to banksters and nothing to homeowners, Detroit, or N.O.; when Rahm was the first player brought in; when the drone-bombings continue with Gitmo. . . I can at least say personally that. . . you’re flogging a long-dead horse.

Fine, but I would dispense with the sparkle pony expectation. That’s just not where most are at. Just my take. Up to you. I think it’s highly in accurate. Best to you & thanks for “discussing.”

Agree.

I’m all for different viewpoints. Like minds can disagree. But I start feeling like I’m being told to STFU and march in line OR ELSE.

Look, at TBogg’s site there are times when someone highjacks a post just to vetch and whine, and it’s not really on topic. I can agree that’s at least rude and not worthwhile.

But simply stating that I’m “expecting a sparkle pony” is simplistic to say the least. No, not that’s not what’s bothering me.

I’m stopping now. Onwards and best to all.

The Republican Party knows there is no desire to return to the Bush years.

Yet Mittens is surrounded by former Bushies so I guess this is an attempt to return to those ‘halcyon days’ via dog whistle or something…

My #2 beef w/Obama is all his ex-Clinton people in the treasury, Rubinites/Goldman-Sachs alumni everyone.

I’m trying not to assume that everyone who’s going to vote for Obama is gleefully complicit in every horrible thing he’s done or will do if he gets a second term. I would appreciate it if, in turn, they would not assume that the only possible reason in this whole wide world not to vote for him is because of not getting a sparkle pony.

A third party vote, along with a whole lot of other things, like actively supporting a third party, Occupying, other activism, can be a building block for the future. If you don’t see it that way, vote your conscience or your pragmatism. But please assume that third party voters may also be voting their conscience or their pragmatism.

This is an extremely disingenuous reply that does not address the point I made. Who has said anything about “snapping his fingers” or fucking sparkle ponies besides you?

Let me try to address your reply point by point:

First the alternative is fucking a hundred times worse IMO

I agree that the alternative is worse but both “alternatives” are bad enough to the extent that how much worse one is than the other is besides the point. The “we suck less” argument is going no where. Give it up.

Second, there are nuances in many of his negatives which would take too long to elaborate

I take this to mean that you can’t provide a cogent and concise explanation for why those negatives are not really negatives which most likely means that you’re talking bullshit.

third, he took over at a time we really were headed to a depression

Yes, that’s the point. He had the electoral mandate, public opinion and control of both houses of Congress working for him. He could have done more or at least tried. Instead he dithered around on wasting time, political capital and opportunity on his personal “sparkle pony” of bipartisanship. Moreover, it’s clear that he never, ever believed in any economic approach other than the Reagan/right-wing trickle-down plan. he did nothing to empower labor or ate least help level the playing field between labor and capital (remember the promises regarding EFCA and joining workers on the picket line?).

You may remember that Pelosi, a democrat, had to help pass TARP.

Sure, but Obama was the far bigger player behind the scenes before the election. Without his support it never would have gotten off the ground. And I don’t give Pelosi or any other Dem who voted for it a pass either.

But too many people just think all he had to do was snap his fingers and the sparkle pony would appear. Not so,not even close.

No one is saying this but you. It’s much more about decisions he made, that were under his control, like hiring Rham Emmanuel and Tim Geithner and retaining the Bush-era troglodytes in the national security state, like continuing and expanding upon the Bush era assault on civil liberties, persecution of whistle blowers and the war without end on terror, like not even permitting single-payer to be discussed in the health-care arena, like not pushing for accountability for the banksters and Wall St criminals, like not pushing for prosecution or at least some kind of truth commission on torture, I could go on and on but I think the point is made.

So please stop with the sparkle pony bullshit. No one except the most unreformed Obamapologist is buying it.

Wasting valuable time at a convention eliciting half-hearted applause for arguably the worst President in American history dilutes the essential message that we should not be working with Republicans, nor trying to find common ground with them, nor painting them as basically decent people that we have some minor policy disagreements with. We need to be working to defeat them and to make sure they never again have access to political power.

Which is exactly why the Clintons have no business anywhere near anything with “Democrat” stamped on it. They’ve been party traitors from day 1. And I’m having trouble seeing Obama as much better.

right on bro!

you r right too

how about RT? (sans thom hartman & his apologetics for the current dem liars)

Naked Capitalism

Yep, Lambert Streicher’s countdown to the DNC convention has been a real hoot.

I particularly liked his take awhile back–something like 42 days until delegates dine on dead locusts and dried cornhusks on the floor of Bank of America stadium.

Quote”When Clinton was in office things were pretty good”..i agree.

With president Obama in office ,things are pretty bad and will continue bad in a second term” i also agree.
No one including my dear and admirable president Clinton can sell me a 2nd term for president Obama. His presence in the convention:
SELL SPEECH,nothing else,i won’t commit the same mistake twice.

Only about 60%, it’s not DailyKos, as long as Kevin Gostola keeps posting.

Bill Clinton is G.H.W.Bush’s adopted/co-opted white trash son and Obama is his adopted/co-opted mixed race son. The Bush Crime Family is a corporation that has infested the body politic for a long, long time.

Maybe he looked better because he’s fattened his bank account by shortchanging the Haitian relief effort and managing to accumulate a reported net worth of $200 million by fleecing the public.

There’s a possibility that neither Bill Clinton nor Barack Obama are the CIA operatives. It may be Hillary Clinton and Michelle Obama instead.

i agree – not specific to politics but y.smith and crewdon’t fall 4 the BS promoted by the current owners of thw white house (and are sympathetic to occupy’s critique)

Was Gore snubbed? I’ve noticed that Current TV is not covering the convention, which is bizarre.

The Ledbetter act isn’t enforced by the Feds. It is a procedural statute that is used every day by employment lawyers.

This is very good advice, bgrothus. I plan to, in my small community. I did mailings for Howard Dean back in the day, now it will be for Jill Stein and Cheri Honkala. Mine will probably be handwritten, though I may go down and use the library’s copier. Door to door, with my son.

unfortunately, the alternative (who should not be voted for either) is not worse. The alternative suckup to the 1% caring not that the planet will be destroyed is better than Obama. The alternative has not killed children with drones. So far, the alternative is innocent of those crimes simply because he hasn’t had a chance to commit them yet. The alternative has not actually been president yet. His crimes are not presidential.

That goes for Jill Stein as well – until someone is actually president, we don’t know if they will take the high ground. Who knows? Mitt might do that, although it looks very doubtful from what he is presently saying and doing.

But he’s not the worst evil. He hasn’t done yet the things Obama has done.