Agreed, Jon, there should be such a conversation … it should be VERY far-ranging, deep and broad … and must include “money” and whether that is “speech” … and whether elections should serve human beings or fictitiuos “people” …

Perhaps “Occupy’s”, across the nation are serving as an example of how democracy might function were it more along the lines of a participatory democracy and not merely a “representative”, and much more easily corruptible, lesser form?

The problems we face, as a society, require much more than simply “more” of the “same”. Those problems require a new understanding of the actual meaning, purpose, and function of genuine democracy.

A thought-provoking post, Jon, thank you.

DW

My current thinking is to boycott national elections and micro-scrutiny local elections. Beginning with the school district elections coming up soon in our area ; knowing the Kochs are throwing money into these elections.
As a homeschooler mom I assumed the public school parents could take care of their own. Now, I think they need the help of sunlight shining on the candidates.

If the Republican Party is so unpopular, why did the Democrats have their heads handed to them at all levels last November? And, after that debacle, why didn’t the Democrats conduct a top-to-bottom housecleaning?

A slight majority of the American people don’t think President Obama deserves another term

He deserves another term except it needs to be a prison term.

I will die happy if the people finally wake up and dump the two parties and never voter another party in. Everyone should just run as an independent.

Are those rhetorical questions?
Cuz I’m a cynic……………….

They certainly are rhetorical.

Really sad about Obama. He had so much promise. Maybe he would have been a better President if he’d waited another dozen years or so to get to know the real world. We’ll never know. Too late now.

Deep down in most cynical inner cynic I half believe that running this parade of rubes is actually a GOP plan to keep Obama in office, because the GOP knows full well that Obama is a policy ally and that he, as a Democrat, can pass far-right legislation and set far-right precedents of Executive authority with barely a whimper of left-wing or center-left opposition.

I don’t think it’s at all lost on the GOP that Obama has done a better job institutionalizing abuses and prerogatives that favor Republican objectives much more eloquently and silently than Bush was able to accomplish.

I heart the youngbloods of Occupy. There’s nothing rhetorical about them and they don’t suffer Corporatist whoring. And they refuse to give in to the violent urges we all have when confronting violence.
They’re a learning curve, oh yeah.

I don’t think you can realistically limit money in politics, and I don’t think you’re ever going to overturn the SCOTUS precedent that money == protected political speech.

Your best bet is probably to try to mitigate the effectiveness of the money. The money basically buys advertising when you distill it down to its core. So, find a way to campaign to mitigate the effectiveness of mass advertising. You’re never going to be able to compete on equal footing regardless of whether or not corporations can open their treasuries to elections. It’s not like there won’t still be a significant number of hyper-wealthy real individual persons to flood money into elections regardless.

Can we vote for McCain this time?

With no real enthusiasm for any of the candidates, the key will be turnout. At this point, the GOP is on track for a better turnout than in ’08, while the Dems are headed for lower turnout. Still a year away and we don’t know who the candidates will be yet.

I never heard anything quite so pathetic. The dems. could go to Obama and tell him that his violations of the Constitution are too outrageous to put up with any longer. Also this string of predator assassinations or stalking before assassinating someone, is gruesome, and because of the nautre of the privatization of our military, the hired hands don’t have the same responsibility to adhere to the Constitution as the genuine military does, so that means that they can be pursuaded by money to do whatever is required. So that being said, we are facing a dictatorship here in the US unless we say no more right away. If the President wants to avoid impeachment then he could gracefully bow out, or we could use the 25th Amendment Section 4 to have him relieved of his duties, the most recent example of his weakness is that having made a public declaration of the facts that he has regarding the attempt to murder the Saudi ambassador, it turns out that Interpol has found out that the brains behind the scandal is in all probability MEK, a terrorist organization that trains in Iraq, and is determined to overthrow Iran. This has been reported already, so the Adminstration is now facing another crazy situation whereby Eric Holder is exposed again as either a bungling idiot or a total liar, either of which doesn’t reflect well on the WH because they are threatening Iran with retaliation on behalf of ? who we don’t really know except most likely David Camerson will come huffing and puffing about how awful it is that the Islamic Leader of Iran is complicit with this assault on a diplomat on US Territory. This is lethal stuff.
So, we need to have President Obama step down so that the Dems. can get someone else up in the WH while they scrape around for some candidates to challenge the tragic GOP candidates. This wonderful republic of ours deserves high quality leadership, and we are not getting it, and the Constitution mandates that if the US citizenry isn’t getting good service from their leadership, that they have the right to tell that leadership to quit, and get themselves some people up in Capital Hill who know what they’re doing. We need to get our real economy going again, the human economy, not the fiscal economy.

No, in my humble opinion; He would be the same Corporate Whore with a more polished veneer when talking to his “base”. Unless, the plan was to decimate the base immediately after gaining Power, in which case, he rocks!!1

“He had so much promise.”

Yeah, he promised the most aggressive corporations in the world that he would sell the people out so that those corporations could be the only “persons” that count for anything.

Wouldn’t it be great if “None of the Above” won the election?

You can’t mitigate the effect of mass advertising. That is the work product of the masters of mindfuckery.

Why do you home school? Ask innocently without agenda.

Really sad about Obama. He had so much promise.

He coulda been a contender…

How would you get “None of the Above” to recite the Oath of Office?

That’s a very interesting idea. There is always the chance of a consolidation of ideas to be channeled into a social message.
Unfortunately, Barry’s campaign poster comes to mind.
Oh, man..
We got no leaders and No Leaders is the message. I think..?

But he was hired to be a pretender. :-(

Oh, hell, I worked for the Masters Of Mindfuckery so I could earn the money.
They are a loosey/goosey group we assume are smarter than us because they can afford to pour buckets of money into the hole we backed away from.
imho

Sure you can. Generationally people become desensitized to various forms of advertising. My generation isn’t as influenced by TV ads as the generation before it. The generation younger than me isn’t as influenced by Internet ads as the generation before it. The generation before mine isn’t as influenced by radio ads as the generation before it.

Etc. etc. etc.

It’s obviously possible sociologically. It’s just up to people like us to find a way to use that to our advantage and either accelerate or partially control the phenomena.

Good post. The question to be asked should be:

Since the 1% is directly benefiting (actually making out like bandits) under either party, is this a quirk or a feature of our system?

The endless unfunded wars that seem to only benefit the military-industrial-complex doesn’t change – quirk or feature?

People here may agree – its by design and “lesser-of-two-evils” really doesn’t apply. The system is rotten and we get nothing good either way.

An obamabot at kos earlier this week tried to proclaim that a tiny bump up (within the margin of error) somehow proved obama’s bottom must have been an inaccurate statistical fluke – absolutely insane proclaiming any recent polling data is a “victory” for the asshat in the white house.

Not to mention… think of all the advertising you see that doesn’t actually influence you. I’ve seen thousands and thousands of Mazda commercials, but I’ve never even remotely considered purchasing one. The commercials for food on TV for McDonald’s, TGIF’s, Outback, etc. all look absolutely disgusting to me. You couldn’t pay me to eat the stuff they’re showing as product.

Every single Dollar those companies spent to reach me as a demographic was an utter failure because I’m not interested in their product, not even curious about it.

That’s a sentiment that can be generated for any product. Politicians are products. Considering how much most of America hates them it can’t be impossible to mitigate the effects of the marketing for them.

Most political support appears to me to be entirely tribal. There are thousands of years of history to poll for strategies for breaking down tribal divisions. This certainly happened long before there was mass marketing.

As the child of the Art World: We Need Art.
I know it sounds simple.
I like the way your mind works, by the way. :]

Well, I would ask a question of my own, that relates to yours; How can the USA lose 20,000 missiles recently, and that’s not a problem?!
Too much information…………………………………………………………………………………………..scanning………………………

Thanks. ;-)

With respect to tribal divisions, I’ve always found it amazing how one can view the political landscape through the simplest lenses to see constant but absurdly arbitrary patterns.

My favorite at the moment is urban vs. rural. I’m an urbanite living in the heart of Portland, OR. My family roots are Swiss immigrant dairy farming in rural Central Oregon and Oregon Trail pioneers. I’m extremely into the wilderness and nature, so I spend a lot of time in the middle of nowhere. I’m also a firearms enthusiast, despite the fact that it’s strangely taboo amongst leftists generally.

The point is… when I leave the city limits the number of Republican support signs goes up 100-fold easily. In the city core it’s all Democrat Blue as far as the eye can see. To me this is completely crazy, because when I spend time around people in the city and people in the country there’s not really that much difference between them. For the most part they’re both poor, and they’re both poor for the same reasons. What they’ve got dividing them are a bunch of cultural issues that, while plausibly important distinctions, are really secondary issues to the huge problems and concerns where they could make common cause.

In a lot of ways we see this reflected in electoral politics where regions or whole states are written off by the parties because they know they’re not part of the existing tribal identity there. This shouldn’t really matter to us, because we’re not trying to pitch the competing tribe, we’re trying to remove the tribalism entirely.

We know that all governments lie. The agents of those governments lie. Friendly governments agree to lie, even as they pretend to mock each other’s government and state. Polls are snapshots of the deception’s effectiveness.

This is a rather pathetic statement on the current state of both parties, but especially the Republican party.

I beg to differ. I think it reflects the pathetic state of the Democratic Party, where less than half of voters will vote for a Dem incumbent AND there is such a horrendous GOP field. IOW, the Dems can’t do better?

He deserves another term except it needs to be a prison term.

Awesome!

I agree to the most part. But , our Local Son, Jeff Morris,D Wa, regionally San Juan islands and the Upper Skagit.
That man, Jeff, is selling us down the river in Koch sponsored, Union-Busting deals. ALEC.
I, personally, think there’s an undercurrent of Americans For Prosperity money influencing our most local politics from schools to our state politics. Actually, I know this. It’s been a personal research project I’ve been working since a family friend in the Wa. transportation Union brought these issues into our lives. And we had to get down to Olympia for a couple of days to walk the protest line. That was an eye-opener.
It was so easy being naive on State, focussed on National.

Oh I don’t doubt it. It’s a good investment for big money because it takes so little to buy so much. I’m sometimes shocked they spend as much as they do on national politics; considering the bargain of key local races.

Though breaking the tribal identification people have to their politics is just as apt locally as it is nationally. This includes people who vote Democrat.

This is all rather easy for me to say, because I’ve rejected electoral politics generally, so I’m already on the other side of the break working on things where citizens actually matter. Initiatives.

Yup, a hell of a contender, but he took a fall in the 1st round.

“I don’t think it’s at all lost on the GOP that Obama has done a better job institutionalizing abuses and prerogatives that favor Republican objectives much more eloquently and silently than Bush was able to accomplish”

That is my theory as well. What better way could the GOP fat cats find to dick over the entitlement programs, escalate the Afghan war, extend the Bushco tax cuts, sellout to pharma, etc, etc, then have Democrats do it for them? They get the gravy, the Democrats get the blame.

Perfect.

With this super-majority charade,both parties have found the perfect escape clause to duck accountability for not doing anything that advances the public weal.However,when it comes free trade agreements,corporate welfare for transnational monopolies or business socialism to perpetuate moral hazard,these bought fucks easily comprise a super- majority .I wouldn’t vote for anyone unless the candidate at least promised to end this sham with its faux filibusters and start working for American interests as opposed to the international interests of the corporate oligarchs .

The Green Party already has statewide ballot access for 2012 locked up in the top four states by population, and the author of this post and 37 posters before me can’t even mention the party?

The MOTU have already decided that Obama will serve another 4 years because they need the cover that a Dem POTUS gives them to finish dismantling the New Deal. They have to run a candidate that is sure to lose incase something happens and the fix gets screwed up. There’s just no way there is going to be a Rep candidate that might win. That is why the Republican field so so weak.

I go into more detail Here

Obama is absolutely the shadow power Repubs’ choice. That is why no one but the Rethug B team wannabees are running. The true Repub inner circle want Obama. He has served up for the Repubs like no Repub president could. The stooges running on the Repub ticket serve nothing but to keep the message on the BS they’ve used for years to instill hate and shove the message into the uber far right. Then Obama can get elected and hand them everything in a deal where nothing is really gained for his so called base but major spoils are given…. again.

We saw this same song and dance about five times with Obama and nobody is buying it any more who is paying attention. I shudder to think how bad this will be in a lame duck session. It is very obvious that SS will be the payment for the millions and of course protecting the ponzi scheme for inbred international elite.

I will NEVER vote for Obama and validate his scam on the people. I won’t vote for the hate mongering sociopathic Repubs either. Somebody for the people needs to run and it needs to be someone we can trust.

Dennis K and Alan Grayson should throw in their hats as Independents. If they don’t do this they might as well forget it because there will be no future for them in the bought off government we have now. And there sure is hell won’t be much of a future for the rest of us if we have to vote for the disgraceful people that are running now.

No kidding – what a legacy – POS President.

Divide and conquer

When everybody is playing on the same team it really doesn’t motivate people to bother voting at all. Repubs have fixed votes for years as well. They don’t even do a decent job of covering it up.

“Obama is absolutely the shadow power Repubs’ choice. That is why no one but the Rethug B team wannabees are running.”

You’re probably right. Hunstman is out of cash, and over at redstate they’re out back picking through the garbage for candidates they overlooked, and are now trying to convince themselves that Newt still looks fresh despite being covered in coffee grounds.

This is a rather pathetic statement on the current state of both parties, but especially the Republican party. The America people think Obama shouldn’t be president, yet within the entire primary field the Republican party doesn’t have one plausible nominee that the public sees as an acceptable alternative.

In historically similar elections is this unusual this early?

I don’t think it’s at all lost on the GOP that Obama has done a better job institutionalizing abuses and prerogatives that favor Republican objectives much more eloquently and silently than Bush was able to accomplish.

Not the GOP so much but the money behind it, yes, I do think that’s right. That has been, has it not, the New Dem plan all along to convince the millionaires and billionaires of whatever persuasion that they are in good hands with Obama and the New Dems. It’s a new deal for the fabulously wealthy that will be paid for with the old deal.

Romney appears to me to be a credible Republican candidate (don’t support him, just saying he’s credible and could win).

The Social Justice Party?

Obama’s unelectable.

As much as he, Plouffe, Axelrod and o-bots abound try to affix blame for failures on Congress and the GOP, the simple truth is that Obama’s going to be running against his GOP opponent and the economy. And his opponent will not, in all likelihood, be a Congress-critter seeking promotion.

The question demanding immediate answer from the Democratic Party’s star chamber is this: will they let Obama run as the nominee and in doing so roll-the-dice on his taking down the Party’s holdings in the Senate and in the few states where the Party holds Executive offices or legislative majorities?

$1 billion is a lot to waste on a loss.

Hey Socratic,I would have voted for Cynthia instead of fuckface except for the Greens promise to be meaningless ,i.e, not to run where it could hurt the dems .If the fear of pissing off the dems is a navigating force,then what’s the point ?. If the Greens want to leverage power to either discipline or destroy the dems,then they must have serious intent and hence a willingness to be hated by tribal dems as the price of making a difference. Admittedly ,I haven’t kept up,and if this is no longer the Greens’ position,then I’m back and ready to work.

Thank you for your concern, as well as your defeatism.

The Great Enabler who promised hope, change, and effective government has turned the electorate into confirmed cynics. Heckva job Barry!

The Greens don’t seem to have a pres candidate in NJ.

Yes, ignore “nothing you can do about money in politics” defeatism. We have the power to use our public airwaves for holding unscripted debates – let the League of Women Voters organize them, make participation a requirement for office seekers, let the public submit questions and don’t use TV news celebrities as moderators. Anyone who says they’re not affected by advertising is fooling themselves or trying to fool others.

No, these numbers don’t actually support a “both sides are in trouble” narrative. An incumbent ought to be doing better than just single digits ahead at this point, more than a year before e-day, and months before the other side has united behind a candidate.

Any of these Rs is going to get an instant “credibility to be Commander-in-Chief” boost the second he or she becomes the other side’s nominee. The boost for Romney would be that he finally shows his command of the field and the dominance, if only after a hard struggle, of “moderate” Republicans over their crazies. He looks more commanding, as opposed to what he is now, a “leader” who can’t seal the deal with the R electorate, and his party looks less crazy, because in the end it sobers up and goes for the moderate. The boost for any of the crazies, if they get the nod, is that the Overton Window immediately jumps far enough right to make their craziness centrism. Getting the nod of one of the major parties makes you, by definition, “centrist”, because there is enough inertial respect for the two-party system, especially among swing voters, that merely getting the nomination means that our side has a hard slog to make the “extremist” label stick.

And, of course, there’s the simple underlying factor of name recognition, and association of names with positions. None of the Rs has Obama’s name recognition, but will quickly be on par within days of sealing the nomination. That effect alone would eat up the narrow margin Obama has now.

These aren’t numbers that are equally bad for both sides. This is much worse for the incumbent who barely edges what is now a band of pygmies, but from whom a challenger as inherently, institutionally, big as the president, will soon emerge. Worse, these numbers suggest that even their crazies have a shot against Obama.

Elections are different. People want to vote, and get only a limited menu with two undesirable choices. In that context, the power of TV to create revulsion for one of those choices is overwhelming. TV is still the medium where most voters spend their time, people like us are still the aberration. The numbers rule, and the mindfuckers are VERY good at mindfucking.

I worked for a major ad agency for a couple of years. They are very good at psychologically manipulating the fear response.

I have been saying people should write in none of the above for the past year..my Dems friends think this would be a wasted vote or a vote for the GOP while GOP friends try and claim I have to vote one party or the other…I think we should have a national push for none of the above!!!

also review fairvote.org good stuff

I won’t support Obama, with his Geitner, Summers, Immelt….Took me for a fool just once. I’ll eat sand and drink seawater before ever voting for a Republican. Rubio’s filthy lie, Romney the Corporate Raider…no end to their dishonesty. This 99%er wants a Candidate in 2012 affiliated with neither existing Wall Street Party…

“…he still leads all the top republican candidates in the general election…”

Check back with us in about 6 months, when more of the chickens from 8 years of republican fuckery, followed by 3 1/2 years of bipartisan caving, have landed.

And,

The new “Mission Accomplished!” sign, to be hung on the White House porticoe the day after New Year’s:

“WE SUCK LESS!”

Actually, the solution’s very simple: Big Zero needs to change parties and run as a Republican. Besides being the easiest path for Obama in 2012, it has the advantage of being what he really wants to do! /s

“One billion dollars is a lot to waste on a loss.”

And that just about nails it.

When the shit really starts coming down, the buck stops on Barack Obama’s desk, not John Boehner’s. The more fucked up things are, the more republicans will be willing to run like gazelles, on the situation. ‘

Anyone who thinks that the voters will distribute the blame equally, needs to be sitting in the corner wearing a cone-shaped hat.

This means nothing but bad news for Obama because he does not have an opponent focusing on his performance. If Obama is in this kind of trouble with no scrutiny on his record imagine the dropoff when he does. When his opponent looks into the camera and asks are you better off now than you were four years ago he is toast.

You want to get money out of elections? You’re going to need a Constitutional amendment, because the courts have affirmed the money == protected speech prerogative multiple times. I wish you the best of luck, but it’s not going to happen. Then in addition to new rules being made you have to be able to effectively police them. Given the stakes I would expect complex and mature money laundering schemes in politics to replace the quasi-transparent system we have now.

It’s not defeatism to be able to look at a situation, the relevant incentives, the mutable and immutable rules, and the interactions between them and notice that it’s an insurmountable task. In this case we’re always going to be outgunned in ability to spend, so unless our propaganda is REALLY effective (which we lack the funds to research), then we need alternative means.

Nobody in their right mind fights a conventional war with the U.S. for a reason. We’re up against the same kinds of organization and force politically.

Most of the western world seems to be stuck with governments that act against the interests of the bulk of their people (as in Greece, or the USA), yet they stay in power. This alone should tell us that “democracy” doesn’t exist here. What we have is a “bipartisan” front for an elite who have no intention of letting the people rule, yet keep the charade in place for cover. “Let them eat cake” …

You know squat. Take yer bullshit prognostication to the astrology section where it belongs.

…hope there is a third party soon as a result of Occupy…it would take care of the unpopular president and the unacceptable GOP replacements…at no other time in American history did we need a third party more than we do now…think a wedge is in place and an inroad has been constructed now thanks to those occupying and giving so much of themselves…the government and their out-of-control police state will call this wrong or unlawful…The Bill of Rights, our guts and our integrity call this right, normal and lawful…sensing the 1% is pushing back with high-drama international activity that they want all to believe is more important than what is happening with OWS nation-wide…the most important thing to happen in 30 years is that the 99% will be the ones to refurbish and save America…

Gee, I thought that was Nathan’s most sensible comment of the day.

Alright genius, how are you going to get money out of politics without an Amendment?

How are you going to generate more money to spend on campaigning than the wealthy interests who both tilt the table in their favor and have an ever increasing amount of discretionary funds relative to our ever dwindling discretionary funds?

:rollseyes:

I was so angry at my brother for voting Nader in 2004. But now I will be voting 3rd party. I’m sick of “supporting” dumba** f***ers.