If you look at the current government in the UK, you will see an almost unprecedented level of bipartisanship in the recent history of the country. The Conservative Party and the Liberal Democrats have been working together extremely closely.
What is the cause of this outbreak of bipartisanship? The answer is simple, the UK has three big political parties and two of them were needed to form a coalition with a governing majority. This gave the Lib Dem-Conservative coalition a huge incentive to embrace their bipartisan relationship and do everything they could to make bipartisan compromise work.
If their bipartisan relationship produces good results, both parties would likely be rewarded with electoral gains, mainly at the expense of the Labour Party. If they fail to work together to produce good results, both stand to lose seats, mainly to Labour.
In fact, this basic reward/punishment system makes high levels of bipartisan, tri-partisan, or even quadru-partisan compromise (i.e. coalition governments) the norm in countries with more than two political parties.
The reason you see little sustained, genuine bipartisanship in America, despite most beltway pundits acting like the mere hint of it sends them into ecstasy, is that there is no incentive for doing it.
Let’s say a Republican Congress and a Democratic President came up with a fantastic bipartisan bill that made the economy much better–which party should win the next election? Because, with only two parties, one must improve at the expense of the other. Who should get the reward for this shared success, the party that controls the White House or Congress?
As long as blame/credit is shared equally, regardless of whether the two parties reach a great bipartisan deal, a disastrous bad deal, or no deal at all, the electoral impact will be the same. And if the credit isn’t shared equally–say the party that holds the presidency gets most of the credit for success–you have even worse problems. If the party that controlled Congress works to reach an agreement for a new program that makes things much better, they would actually be punished for their good deeds in the next election as the president’s party gains seats.
If you really want more bipartisanship, the only real solution is to promote more viable political parties.
To have more viable parties requires systematic changes to our political system. You need to switch to a voting system like proportional representation and, to a lesser degree, instant runoff voting that promotes more than just two parties.
If there were one or two additional parties that could make electoral gains if the Republicans and Democrats failed to pass positive bipartisan agreements, then they would have a real incentive to work together when they shared power.
Of course, many who demand more grand bargain bipartisan compromises are pundits who actually want a system that allows our leaders to take actions directly in defiance of the will of the electorate to protect the leaders from democratic accountability. What they really want isn’t bipartisanship, but to have elitism that has no need to listen to the voters.
This provides us with a simple test. If a person bemoans the lack of bipartisanship and promotes systematic electoral reform that allows for more parties, it is a good chance they actually want a democracy where people with a diversity of views are forced to find the best compromise in order to govern. On the other hand, if they demand everything be bipartisan and only support having a two-party system, it is likely deep down what they really want is our government leaders to be able to freely get away with policies opposed by regular voters.




83 Comments
Excellent post. Thank you! The kabuki that they try to sell as a two-party system has been a total failure at least since the end of Clinton’s presidency and the beginning of Jr’s.
The American people have been played for over ten years.
Obama promised changed.
Obama lied.
Now we have to be the change we’ve been waiting for.
For one thing, we need a second party.
We shall see if the so-called Liberal Party and the genuinely liberal NDP Party of Canada can work together to curtail the actions of Harper and the Conservative Majority.
The winner-take-all system of our political process is the main thing in the way of a viable third (or more) party. A parliamentary or proportionally representative system would make this possible but that would obviously require a constitutional convention which is not going to happen. The current system protects the interests of the elites and you are never going to get the people who have power to give up an ounce of it.
My interpretation is different. Before about the time of Gingrich there was a lot of bipartisanship. Sometimes this meant that the minority Republicans offered only token opposition to Democratic policies, and sometimes it meant that business Democrats and Republicans cooperated in screwing the general public. They’d fight over noisy token things, and agree on big things –they were all buddies in the back room. Bipartisanship is really the same thing as back-room deals in smoke-filled rooms between parties that say one thing to their voters and other things to each other. (Minority Leader Robert Michel was the last sane Republican Leader in Congress).
Gingrich moved to a more combative approach which is still in effect. Democrats have been trying to find some kind of middle from which deals can be made, but it’s a losing battle.
I think that this happened because the Republican Party itself has been marginalized, because the Republican Congressmen are all terrified of heavily-financed (by the Kochs, Norquists groups, etc.) hard right groups outside the party who have knocked off a lot of moderate and sane conservative Republicans in the primaries. Some of the Republican leaders would like to cut deals, but they don’t dare. (I think that that’s what happened with the medical care debate — I think that in the beginning Snowe and Grassley were bargaining in good faith, but they were scared off by organized opposition in their home states.)
Obama’s bipartisanship strategy is either idiotic or traitorous. There never was any reason to hope for bipartisanship.
wHAT ABOUT REDISTRICTING TO ELIMINATE ALL BLUE, ALL RED DISTRICTS?
Great post Jon,
I’m thinking Progressive party, truly progressive and the ideal leader right now would be Russ Feingold.
Robert LaFollette, also from Wisconsin had a lot of great ideas and the Progressive Era produced a lot of democratic changes.
Russ Feingold, will not run for President, because as he says, his Jewish heritage and the fact that he has been divorced would preclude a run.
I am hoping he runs for Governor of Wisconsin when they recall that POS Walker.
The Dims and the Rethugs, both fear progressive ideas but that is the one approach that I think will work.
How about a Constitution Party that supports the rule of law and the protections afforded by the Constitution, as amended? Under the current bipartisan `consensus’, that would be considered as dangerously subversive, practically a sleeper cell.
“bipartisanship” is the antithesis of the premise of the government: the struggle of competing ideas. It should never be a goal. The notion of balance of power is specifically to allow for ‘the struggle of competing ideas’ without anyone idea (entity) gaining dominance.
The recent evolution of republicanism since reagan to internally stifle all competing ideas in order to vote as a unified block, specifically to overcome the government’s safety mechanisms against single entity dominance and with the express purpose of acquiring power is unAmerican pain and simple.
I have heard this song before. But the effect of having more than two viable Presidential candidates in the general election, say three, then it is possible to have a President elected with 34 percent–or even way less with our electoral college–of the popular vote. With a half dozen candidates, the winner would have no mandate and The Presidency would be reduced to a key toting clerk carrying only 17 percent of the popular vote. Instant runoffs would be of little value as only a tiny fraction of voters would vote for those left standing.
A better idea would be to eliminate the mountains of cash purchasing our elected officials through legalized bribery.
Thanks Jon, I voting and will work for a Green in my area. If Germany has them in Govt. why not us?
If you’re thinking Progressive Party, AppleCanyon2, think NPA: http://www.newprogs.org
Founded at MyFDL last fall, we devised a two-track strategy for giving progressives a real voice in our policy debates again: A primary challenge to Barack Obama by a candidate who pledges to uphold the Unified Progressive Platform now being crafted by our volunteers, and a General election run by an independent or third-party challenger to whom the primary challenger “throws their support,” which tradition which, until now, had always been co-opted by the major parties’ elites, by forcing primary challengers to support the nominee.
This was a quaint practice in the more genteel, more innocent past. But things have changed. Obillion (and others with party support) can essentially buy their nominations before the first vote is even cast. So we, the people, too must adapt our approach.
The NPA seeks to leverage the attention the American public will pay to politics during the 11 months preceding the 2012 presidential election; to leverage it into that uncompromising, undaunted, unforgiving voice which supports and seeks to expand workers’ rights, public services, STRICT corporate and financial regulation, environmental protection, new infrastructure, free public education through college, and civil rights – ideals to which the Democrats have for 30 years only paid lip service.
I hope you’ll join the effort.
I like the article’s premise except you have to accomplish one other key issue not discussed. That issue is voting in general. At the end of any election, special, midterm or national the representation voting is about 60% at it’s highest. When someone gets 48-63% of the vote they are only getting about 90m votes (assuming 50% of the vote) out of 300m people. That is pathetic. That is only 30% of the population. Note: My math does not isolate those who cannot vote. The rounding is purely hypothetical, because I do not know the exact population that can/should vote.
In Australia, if one does not vote there are penalties, for example no renewal of ones driver’s licence or some sort of tax. This get out the voting population in the 90% -95%+ range. Now that is a good sampling when someone says “the Australian people” have spoken.
When the Democrats or Republicans make that statement, I cringe because a). Poling doesn’t bare their statement or b). The amount of the poling is a small amount of the people who vote anyways.
So yes, having more parties like the European system may be appropriate, but having a larger representation of the voting populace is also critical.
My premise is a chicken and egg story, because one must ask if we need more parties first or more people voting first?
Mandated voting. I like that idea. All republicans vote anyway, so it would only benefit the working class and not the investment class.
The people MUST have representation!
IMO, there is no change at the voting booth until we rid ourselves of black box voting. We have to get back to paper ballots where there is some accountability to the number of votes and to whom they voted. We also have to have delegations from the parties to participate in the vote count!
Nothing that we can do as citizens is more important right now than ensuring that our votes are real and counted!
Both approaches are worthwhile, OFG. Yes, the unlimited cash in campaigns is a 180-degree perversion of the principle of democracy and the notion of access to government for which it stands. But in terms of multiple parties, Jon is right: It is the very lack of a mandate that forces cooperation, and the existence of the additional parties that serves as the rudder. If the NDP and Liberals in Canada work together, for example, the Tories will not dare to enact some of the batshit crazy stuff they would in the absence of two such “checks.” Here, sadly, the Tea Party is the conservative establishment’s attempt to gain the very triangulation that will allow the batshit to flow unchecked.
To see the positive effects of multiple parties and coalition governments, one only needs look throughout Europe. Without them, the so-called “conservative wave” of the past generation would have washed away what Europeans refer to as their “beloved welfare state.” Contrary to the derogatory connotation conservatives have succeeded in hanging on the phrase here, the welfare state that pervades Europe refers to the social contract: The premise that the primary role of government is to assure the basic health and welfare of all citizens, for without these they cannot be productive members of society.
Here, the conservatives want to say, “so what,” based their warped notion that not caring for our own is both “cheaper” and “forces them to sink or swim.” This, of course, is sheer bullshit. The deck is stacked against the underprivileged in this country due to just such ridiculous “logic,” and perpetuating it is not only far more expensive to our physical infrastructure in the long run (like, when members of the permanent underclass we are now developing begin throwing molitov cocktails at our great public buildings), but it hurts us profoundly as a people – not in the short or long terms but right here, right now.
Yep! – and ‘bipartisanship’ is a stupid word -(what other country in the world has only two parties?) – So everywhere else politicians of different tribes HAVE to come together and find resolutions TOGETHER – And if you look at ‘coalitions’ in a lot of other countries it teaches people (and politicians) – to be reasonable!
Proportional voting is not unknown in American political history. It was used in New York City and Cincinnati until the 1950s as a way of curbing the power of party machines (Democrats in NYC, Republicans in Cincy). Illinois had a cumulative voting for state legislators until 1980; voters were given three votes, which they could cast as a “bullet” for a single candidate or distribute among multiple candidates running in that district.
The current Constitution Party wants to entrench the Book of Leviticus into the criminal code and roll the clock back to the Gilded Age. Maybe the name needs to be retired for a while, as is done with the names of especially destructive hurricanes.
It’s pretty crummy when bipartisan cooperation happens for only negative reasons (fear of the other guy).
Like when the Democrats and the Republicans joined forces and locked out any other party from the (cough) debates.
More yummy lying ads we’ll get. Yay!
Agree, “bipartisanship” doesn’t get it, but it’s our reality right now. Still, a better headline might have been, “If you want responsive government, promote more political parties.”
Sounds good but with all the money in politics unless you have a billionaire backing you I don’t see any possibility of a viable 3rd party. What your talking about is a split of one of the parties which would insure the success of the opposing party.
The Green Party would be better positioned if it moved into the Democratic Party and effected change from within. The Tea Party has highjacked the Republican Party and made a monumental shift in that Party though to it’s own detriment.
Third Parties in America are for the moment fantasy. The Progressive movement needs to move into local politics and work to have a grass roots effort to elect local officials and win some governorships like the Republicans have done. By focusing on the Presidency and the Senate the effect of the 2010 election with the Republicon’s taking over States and the House we have the Country having to fight back dramatically to the real Conservative agenda of the Republicon’s.
Lincoln won in a four-person race for President – two parties had one nominee and one party split north and south with two nominees. The Republican Party was the newest in the field, but won Abe a plurality.
Third parties move the conversation away from backrooom deals – what we have now between dem corporates and gop corporates. The only difference is the Dem talks about Gay and other “rights” and Gop talks about religious “rights.”
Neither does a thing about fair wages, decent vacations, free childcare, adequate free education, free nursing homes and public project funding with tariffs where needed.
But the ‘irony’ -(I forgot again ‘the irony’) – and the ‘illusion’ – (ahh ‘the illusions’)
1″No backroom deals’ – Are you joking? Do you know how ‘political’ coalitions between more than two parties are built in democracies?
2″Responsive government” – You must be joking! Do you know how difficult it is to deal with coalitions of two or more parties?
‘Bipartisan only for negative reasons” -
Who says so? Because the Republicans most of the time get what they want and we are screwed?
It could be much worst: Think about the US as a country of only “Red States”!
(and there are all these ‘illusionists’ who think the US is not a ‘democracy’!)
I don’t care how many parties we have so long as we have ONE party that represents the people. The others would NEVER win an election.
Things change. It’s called history.
Political partys are incubators for corruption.
The reason is simple. The most basic function of a political party is to grovel for money from Wealthy Special Interests. ANY organization who’s basic function is begging for money from wealthy scoundrels will be corrupt. There is no avoiding it.
I am a lifelong liberal-progressive and an Ex-Democrat who re-registered as an Independent [not affiliated with any political party]. The most amazing thing about Independents is that we dont need nor do we want a political party to tell us how to think. We can think for ourselves. This is the most difficult thing to understand for those who are stuck in the political party box. I dont need “daddy” political party to do my thinking for me… nor do I wish to belong to a corrupt club or click. I CAN THINK FOR MYSELF.
Independents are now the largest group of voters in the country. WE want more choices… 3-4-8-10-100′s of choices for political office. We need candidates who are running for office because they want to solve problems and work for the American people. We need more choices… not more political partys.
Gerrymandering… is one of the biggest scams ever pulled by the two corrupt political partys.
We have to put an end to this corrupt practice.
Anthony Noel…
I commend you for your effort. Keep speaking out.
Maybe this is off subject but if a 3rd party is a no go what about lobbying for tax payer funds? If you proposed to delegate the funds to certain entities at certain percents to help individuals during re-election they would have an incentive to appropriate funds to the organization. I’ve heard that some already do this!
Proportional representation did not prevent the popular will from being ignored in the UK when Blair and company joined the war in Iraq. As long as you are rewriting the constitution, then I’ve got a better idea that no one here seems willing to consider: replace elections with the periodic, random selection of representatives.
Each district would randomly generate a list of 100 names and would go down that list till someone was willing and able to serve. The president would be chosen for a term by the legislature from among its members who completed their legislative terms. The president would be subordinate to the legislature in the same way as a corporate president is subordinate to the Board of Directors.
The advantages are that you get rid of partisanship and the ownership of the government by the rich. You have more diverse experience and points of view. A bribe would be punishable as a bribe and not legalized as a campaign contribution. You would take power out of the hands of warped, corrupt, professional politicians.
When ordinary people are required to make the decisions themselves and then study the issues free from partisan spin and propaganda, they will actually make good decisions.
Doggid…
In all due respect…your assertion about money in politics is totally wrong and needs to be debunked… once and for all.
I will ask you and anyone else some simple questions. When you go into the voting booth and pull the curtain… and are alone in the booth… who makes the decision of who you vote for? Does a corporation make the decision for you? Does a wealthy scoundrel businessman make the decision for you? Is someone forcing you to vote a certain way? In one candidate spends more money than the other are you then forced to vote for them?
When I… as an Independent [ not affiliated with any political party] go into the voting booth… I could care less how much money a candidate has spent on campaign ads… how many campaign ads he or she has run… or how much money someone else has spent on their behalf.
The ONLY thing I care about is that the candidate has DEMONSTRATED a commitment to solve the countries problems and work for the American people.
The American people want REAL change. Thats why the 2008 election turned out the way it did. Unfortunalely the promise of change was FAKE… and it never happend. So the time has come to break the back of the corrupt two party system and for voters to stand up to coruption. Voters have finally realized that both political partys are corrupt to the core. Thats why our brilliant forefathes gave us the power of our VOTE. Your VOTE trumps money.
The flaw in your thinking is that elections matter. They don’t. The rich vote with dollars and favors. The same donors donate to the candidates of both parties and that is why nothing really changes when one party takes over from the other. Both parties work for the same people and those people are not “the American people.” They are the plutocrats who are the real owners of the country.
Now reread the last paragraph of your own post and see how you are being a champion of futility. I’m not trying to put you on the defensive. A lot of people vote and think they are exercising power only to see their will ignored.
You want “ONE party that represents the people”. But that’s sooo easy if you are a Republican. I can’t think about a single party who represents the voters of the Red States better!
(we gotta change back to a Republic – Jefferson NEVER EVER would have tolerated the rule of such ‘mob’!)
Tom DeLay became very powerful within the Republican party because he raised a LOT of money for the party’s candidates. He did that by “hammering” big, special interest donors. The Green Party would become even less relevant and visible if it joined the Democrats.
I heard a quote from an old Russian leader a few years back; It’s not so important who votes as it is who counts them. Recent events seem to provide a degree of validity to his statement.
You didnt read my comments…
I agree totaly … 100% that both the Democrats and Republicans have been corrupted to the core the the exact same cabal of Wealthy Special Interests.
Which is exactly why we need to break the back of the corrupt two party system. The corruptors of our entire government figured out one simple thing. In order to get everything they want… all they need to do is corrupt BOTH parties. Therefor whoever is elected under the two party system will represent the Oligarchs-Corporations and not the American people.
Independents KNOW this. This is why Indpendents are ready and willing to vote for candidates OTHER than corrupt Democrats and corrupt Republicans.
I am not sure what part of my comments you misunderstood. The worse thing voters could do is to continue to vote for corrupt D’s and R’s… and then wonder why nothing changes.
Voters need to learn to think for themselves and stop being victims of political party brainwashing.
and the flaw in YOUR thinking is that you don’t think that elections matter and then comes November and suddenly the House is full of Teapartylunatics – and you go:”Duuuh – how did that happen”?
And get rid of this idea about ‘the ‘Owners’ – nobody “owns” you ‘darling’ and i know it could be a comfortable feeling this: “I can’t do anything anyway against the ‘Richies’ – They have so much money and power that I don’t stand a chance” – FUTILITY, FUTILITY, FUTILITY! (and at the same time some ‘Germans’ who don’t think that at all – elect a Green (State) government!
Why don’t you try that at the next election – together with 50 million people?
(and I believe it’s much much easier to overcome ‘money influence’ than stupidity!)
Good start Jon, recognizing that a two-party system inevitably results in two look-alike Tweedledum and Tweedledee parties. Truly written: “If you really want more bipartisanship, the only real solution is to promote more viable political parties.”
The solution is much more difficult than you suggest (as you probably know, and were holding back) because elections are managed at the local level and it is at these levels that the R’s and D’s have complicated entrance requirements for third parties.
Ralph Nader gives a good description of these in his 2002 book: Crashing the Party: Taking on the Corporate Government in an Age of Surrender
excerpt:
At the end of the book:
Taking on the Corporate Government in an Age of Surrender
By Ralph Nader
April 18, 2002
pieceofcake…
Wow… you brought up a great point.
One of the most feindish brainwashing schemes perpetrated by the Democrats and Republicans is the “VOTERS ARE HELPLESS” scheme. This successful scheme has caused legions of voters to ‘RESIGN’ themselves to voting for the same corrupt politicians over and over and over because they blindly believe they have no other choice.
This is one of the most difficult brainwashing schems to overcome. If you read political websites… it is amazing how many voters are still naive enough to believe this.
Our forfathers gave us the power of our vote. With our vote… the American people can stand up to and defeat corruption.
and this might be the major problems – that there are all these people in the US who truly think there is hardly a difference between the two American parties – while in reality you hardly will find any democracy on this planet where there IS a more pronounced difference. Ohh no: “In Capitalism ANY party is capitalistic” – so it’s all the SAME, SAME, SAME!
Yeah but the difference between a dude who gives you choice of abortion and a dude who doen’t is a world.
And the difference between a dude who votes for the Ryan plan or against it – is another one – and on and on!
So snap out of it! Try to find the differences between the two parties and I promise you – You will be amzed!
donbacon…
Great comment.
The coordinated destruction… by the Democrats and Republicans and their mainstream media shills… of the ideas and viewpoints of Ralhp Nader is one of the saddest stories in American politics. If there is one person both the Democrats-Republicans and their corruptors FEAR more than anyone… its Ralph Nader.
Yeah Ralph’s good people. Too bad there isn’t an institution that trained students to take on the tasks that Ralph stated. There seems to be no shortage of post graduate institutions that promote the opposite view and they pay nice to boot. I guess there’s a lot of too bad there isn’t.
I could not disagree more with your assertion that there is a difference between the Democrats and Republicans. There is NOT. Both are corrupt to the core. Neither party represents the American people.
Both partys use wedge social issues… abortion being one of them… to make it appear they are opposed to each other… while behind the backs of their supporters the Democrats and Republicans are working hand in hand to LOOT the country.
Vote! Yes please do. I once voted for an independent truck driver because he said he’s been around.
I read your comments before I responded. That is why I asked you to read your own last paragraph in light of what I posted.
Your own voting habits are not shared by the overwhelming majority of voters who argue that a vote for a third-party or independent candidate is a wasted vote.
How did GW Bush capture the 2000 GOP nomination? By raising more funds than the entire rest of the field combined. Those candidates who do not raise large sums of money are unable to promote their phony messages, are ignored by reporters who don’t consider them “serious” candidates, and are ignored by the voters who may not even be aware of their candidacies.
Money is the mother’s milk of politics. I didn’t make that up. For the politicians elections are just games to see who gets to do the bidding of special interests and therefore enjoy a larger share of the spoils.
Well, darling, to borrow from the queen bee of modern American politics Sarah Palin, how’s that hopey-changey stuff workin’ out for ya?
The Republicans absolutely do not represent the people of red states or any other states unless you mean the rich people. The exact same thing is true of Democrats and blue states.
Plus all the hoops you have to jump through as Ralph stated above.
There are a lot of reasons why I am not a Democrat. But their illegal and immoral treatment of Ralph Nader is what caused me to hate them.
So no one is willing to think outside the box and consider or debate the solution I posted @ 31?
Is there that much love here for whore politicians and endless war? That much comfort with obvious futility? Elections are the opiate of the masses.
The ‘Hopey changey stuff’ is (again) working out much better than I thought – because in November I thought (for a few weeks) – there won’t be ANY hope at all anymore if the House gets taken over by all these Sarah Palins!
Are ordinary citizens smart enough to vote, but too stupid to run the government? Isn’t there an inherent contradiction there?
Everybody who comments here thinks they know enough to contest what the politicians are doing, but they don’t think they could do a better job if they were selected to serve in Congress. It’s both tragic and comical.
This is in reference to my posts @ 31 and 51.
WHAT??!: “The Republicans absolutely do not represent the people of red states or any other states unless you mean the rich people”.
Are you one of these one-dimensional Americans where everything is about “money” -(and – Hey – I gave you the ‘abortion’ example) –
You see – I don’t care that much about ‘money’ – My priorities are the priorities a lot of Red State voters – who perfectly represent the Republican Party -(and vice versa) – DON’T SHARE!
When I enter the voting booth I always look for candidates that have “DEMONSTRATED a commitment to solve the countries problems and work for the American people.”
I find that, in national elections, there are no Democrats or Republicans who qualify. Just whores who are owned by the “moneyed interests”.
You are stuck in the two party box and you cant get out.
And it appears you have bought into the Democrats and Republicans brainwasing scheme of “Voters Are Helpless”. If you have bought into that… then you are doing EXACTLY what the corruptors of our government want you to do. They want you to think that. It allows them to continue corrupting and controlling our entire government.
Thinking like that is exactly why I left the Democratic party and re-registered as an Independent. The only hope of taking back our government is if voters can learn to think for themselves. Independents have the common sense to do that. Keep in mind that Independents registerd as such without any campaign or promotion to do so. No money was spent to cause us to do this. We did it all on our own.
The thing that is so difficult for political party worshipers to understand is that there is now so many American voters who can think for themselves. Political party worshipers just dont get it.
Do you want to know what will determine the outcome of the 2012 elections? The unemployment rate. If it improves dramatically by then and is headed in the right direction, then the Democrats win. If it improves only slightly and is seen as stagnant, or if it gets worse, then the Republicans win.
That’s the way it always works. Everything else is irrelevant.
workingclass…
Exactly. The time has come to break the back of the corrupt two party system.
and see – you voted for a truck driver because he said he’s been around -(Is that some kind of ‘homeland thing’?
– and I read the ‘Party manual of the German Greens” and I thought: ‘cool”‘ – And I voted for them -(and I can do that as a German-American!)
I live in Louisiana. The Republicans don’t represent me. Or would you like to argue about that. I know a lot of black folks. The Republicans don’t represent them do they? I know a lot of red necks that vote for the Republicans. But the Republicans don’t represent them either. They just don’t know it. And my boss, a country club Republican, thinks he is represented. But he is way behind the times. He is a small business owner and a mere millionair. The Democrats and Republicans ONLY represent Billionairs. Thanks for sharing.
I never would dispute that it is: “The economy stupid” – That’s how my homeland “ticks”!
(no value judgement attached) —
But there are still ALL these other things – and sometimes the most awesome ‘things’ like… “I really LIKE this dude better than the one from the other party”!
Okay, now I have to ask if you are reading my posts, or even my user name. I have proposed a solution in post #31 that would eliminate all political parties by eliminating elections.
The Democrats and Republicans have no such scheme. They have every reason to keep the system going because it serves them. They want voters to fear the other party and to think the solution is to vote for them. If voters ever caught onto the fact that they are indeed helpless, then they would think about how to change the system. That is what I’ve been doing, but I’m pretty much alone in the endeavor.
Good Lord – Did you vote Republican? I only said they probably ‘represent’ THEIR voters pretty well -(compared to the voters of democrats?)
Mr. workingclass has it right. The Republicans don’t represent the people who vote for them; they exploit them. The term “useful idiots” comes to mind. They throw those people a few bones with “values” issues like attacking abortion rights, blaming the size of government on the relatively tiny programs that help the poor, and attacking equal rights for homosexuals. What they are really about is undermining the middle class, stifling upward mobility, and protecting and enhancing the status of the politically connected rich.
You give two examples on how the R’s and D’s are far apart.
1. abortion
This is hardly a major issue, and in any case the differences are slight. March, 2010: President Obama signed an executive order Wednesday ensuring that existing limits on the federal funding of abortion remain in place.
2. Ryan plan
This hasn’t played out yet — it looks like the D’s will cut Medicare benefits.
On the major issues there’s no significant difference:
* war & MIC support
* Patriot Act — domestic subjugation
* corporate welfare
* realistic health care
* drug war
* free trade
* education testing, teacher demeaning
* Israel/Palestine
* American Exceptionalism
My mom’s mother was German and she was strict as I heard it. They came over in the early 20’s, so I guess I’m third generation immigrant. No wonder immigration does not bother me.
nonpartisianliberal…
Debate is healthy.
“Your own voting habits are not shared by the overwhelming majority of voters who argue that a vote for a third-party or independent candidate is a wasted vote.”… you said that not me. That is the very definition of “Voters Are Helpless”. That is exactly what needs to change.
“The Democrats and Republicans have no such scheme.”… you have to be kidding me? I have been politically active for 40 years. During my time as a Democrat I had been bombarded and “encouraged” by political party members to “drop” into conversations the “lesser of two evils and voters are helpless so they need to resign themselves and vote party ticket” too many times to count. This scheme is employed by both partys. They spread this corrupt thinking at the local level and through their propaganda teams and mainstream “news media” shills. It is one of the most successful political brainwashing schemes ever invented. “The Lesser Of Two Evils” is totally systemic and is the most commonly used excuse given by Democratic and Republican party worshipers for continuing to vote for the same corrupt politicians over and over and over… even though they know them to be evil and corrupt. Democratic and Republican party worshipers are so totally brainwashed by this inane and convoluted thinking… that we have what we have now… a totally 100% corrupt government.
Thanks for your earnest replies and Keep speaking out.
There will be no ‘bi-partisanship’ until there is another partisan acting rationally on the political stage.
The ‘Grand’ Old Party?
What to make of a party fixated on flag pins, birth certificates, man on dog sex and creationism. You can call it a lot of things but ‘Grand’ aint one of them.
There remain some ‘country club’ Republicans but the Tea Bag Frankenstein created by cynical corporate types is now turning on its master.
Professor Beery slams the Party of PALIN and BACHMANN in his outstanding blog …
http://waronignorance.net/index.html
Ouch!
They really are quite the same, aren’t they Don? And how useful are the Democrats? Let’s see:
ABORTION: The courts made abortion legal. The Republicans have had their way legislatively in trying to deny access to abortion as much as possible. Federal funds can’t be used for abortion. They are also succeeding in preventing private insurers from covering abortions and pulling other tricks.
SAME-SEX MARRIAGE: Again, the courts have made same-sex marriage legal in some states. In other states, grassroots initiatives have appeared on the ballot and been defeated, some times narrowly. I believe only two state legislatures have legalized same-sex marriage: Vermont and California. It was quickly overturned in California through a ballot initiative. 41 state legislatures have expressly banned same-sex marriage. Thus, this is another “values” issue where the Republicans have been hugely successful.
SOCIAL SECURITY, MEDICARE, HELP FOR THE POOR: The Democrats of earlier generations passed these. The Republicans have chipped away at these programs for the last 30 years. SS beneficiaries have not had a COLA in three years, in spite of the economic stimulus that would bring. Republicans win again.
I was asked to be a judge for a beauty contest. The only contestants were a pair of identical twins. I felt so empowered by my vote.
Looking at your list I’m amazed how different one can see reality -
First of all “abortion” is a major issue for me -(as much as ‘money’ supposedly for the majority of my fellow citizens) – And then as the Ryan plan proves – and every single other point on your list.
Where would we be without the opposition of the Democrats?
No Medicare at all?
War with Iran since three years?
TOTAL domestic subjugation?
TOTAL corporate welfare?… etc…. etc…
To make it short: There is not one single point – NOT ONE! where I think the country would be much worst off with a clear Republican majority – or god forbid – a Republican President.
And I am the first one who is ‘praying’ that ‘America finally will find it’s ‘progressive soul – But perhaps I have to wait another generation – because it seems to me – that there are still too many ‘people’ out there who vote for ‘Reactionaries’ – and not because they are ‘misled’ or ‘propagandasized’ – They might ‘reflect’ much less than you do – and perhaps they just ‘love’ to vote for somebody like Palin or Bachmann as much as I hate it. -(even if I love Sarahs hair – and I’m quite jealous!)
You’re looking at history and I’m referring (see my list) to the current situation which is the only matter that counts.
The bought-and-paid for Dems today are not the principled Dems of yesteryear, and when one looks at foreign affairs (esp. wars & I/P) and domestic affairs (esp. corporate welfare and education) there is no discernible difference, except that the Dems are probably worse.
Obama made it clear years ago that he was an unprincipled compromiser, which in practice has meant that he and his party are unprincipled accommodators.
You wrote: “Mr. workingclass has it right. The Republicans don’t represent the people who vote for them; they exploit them”. – What a wonderful explanation for Sarah and all these other ‘politicians’ playing idiots who call the Republican Party their home. Would that imply that they are a lot ‘smarter’ than the people who vote for them?
(and I always had this foolish illusion that America is one of the few countries on this planet where ‘politicians’ are a real mirror of their constituency – if you take away the dollars!)
I would run for US Senate in NY on the Independent party ticket if I could…that Party’s administration is a joke here though.
Scott Noren DDS
http://www.norenforsenate.com
The current situation -(with the Teapartiers) – makes it even more important to accept every help we got. BECAUSE -(and how often do we have to ‘realize’ that?) – It’s a truly CRAZY world out there and there are people – breathing thinking humans – who are ready to vote for the Donald or confused preachers who tell them: “The end is near” – and EVERY SINGLE SANE PERSON counts – even if he is a bit ‘off’ -(but hopefully not as much ‘off’ than this bunch of outrageous idiotic Republicans) – and as one half rational – very rational German I just don’t get how anybody could come to the conclusion these two parties are ‘the same’?
Yes.
Senator David Vitter seems quite stupid if you assume he has good intentions. He’s a Rhodes Scholar. So is Governor Bobby Jindal who, like Vitter, panders to the religious right. How many of those Louisiana rednecks who vote for Vitter and Jindal do you think are Rhodes Scholars?
I’m happy I disabused you of that foolish illusion. You’re welcome. :)
donbacon…
You make a very important point. Too many party worshipers are stuck in the past… refusing to see that the Democratic party of today has NO resemblance of any kind to the party of the past.
The change was swift and complete… starting with Bill Clinton’s catastrophic business friendly policys [repeal of the Glass-Steagall act]… the takeover of the party by the Corporate cozy DLC [Democratic Leadership Council] and made complete by John Dean and his “blue dog” strategy. The corruption is now complete.
‘pandering to the religous right’ – and why? – Why do we always think the few smart Republicans are ‘pandering’ to somebody? (and did you come up with these Rhodes Scholars because you would have to accept that Sarahs voters are smarter than her?) – Anywho the only smart Republicans I know – and especially if they are ‘religious’ – They really believe in their “stuff” and I believe that’s much more ‘damning’ than ‘pandering’ to somebody!
and I would like to add – I think that another reason for all this ‘confusion’ – if you believe in ‘our savior’ -(whoever he might be) – your Rhodes Scholar knowledge could be totally ‘turned of’ – like with ‘foamers’ and I met a ‘foamer’ last week – These are dudes who start to “foam” if they see a Choochootrain and if they have a PHD they still ‘foam’ and they are NOT – I repeat – They are not ‘pandering to anybody.
(and @ 79)
Polling has shown that Sarah Palin’s voters are mostly low-income white people with only grade school educations. I’m not saying that a person who fits that demographic can’t be smart, but I will say that anyone of any demographic who supports Sarah Palin is not smart.
Why do I think guys like Vitter and Jindal pander? Because they do. They support nonsense like birther bills, putting the ten commandments in courtrooms and other symbolic gestures to religious fundamentalist mouth-breathers while serving moneyed interests at the expense of everyone else. In other words, they are really the enemies of the people they pretend to represent.
This is what you actually said:
“But that’s sooo easy if you are a Republican. I can’t think about a single party who represents the voters of the Red States better!”
My demographic is white male – working poor. I am a midwest yankee now living in Louisiana. I like it here. When I first arrived I was appalled at the Republican identity politics espoused by the red necks. They all sound like Rush Limbaugh. Then I found out that most of them DON’T VOTE. When I asked them why they offered various versions of “what difference would it make?” Poor is poor north or south. We are not represented in Washington by anybody and that is my point. If a two fisted populist ran for office here, opposing both legacy parties, black AND white working class people would support him/her. Educated liberals might stick with the Democrats and Country Club Republicans might stick with the Republicans, but no matter how much money they spent they would be crushed at the polls.
This is what I said – and that’s why you and ‘nonpartisan’ (hopefully) – neither represent the Republican voter nor the Republican Party. And your excuses for Republican VOTERS by quoting non-voters is appreciated – but see – if a ‘poor’ voter thinks that these Palin-and Baumann-types really ‘represents’ them it’s really hard for me to deny that – Because these voters are ‘poor’ and rich people shouldn’t ‘represent’ them?
(there is the money issue again) But what’s about all these ‘conservative’ or let’s say ‘reactionary’ values people love to share – like somebodies ‘love for Choochoo trains’? And I don’t think it is up to us ‘progressives’ to decide that Republican voters are actually ‘tricked’ or ‘pandered’ into voting for idiots?
And if a Blue-collar-Harley riding dude decides that Sarah is just like him and that she – and only she should ‘represent’ him in Washington there is nothing more to say!
I guess this thread is still alive, sort of. I confess I don’t know what the fuck you are talking about piece. So I will just wish you well. Maybe next time we can talk about what the word “represent” means. I still maintain that the working class is not represented in Washington. Yes, bigots are represented. But that’s not the same thing.