They hate the children of workers. “Let’s Starve those strikers’ kids! That will Bring them to heel!”

That goes with: “Once they are out of womb, we don’t give a shit!”

Damn, they just don’t hate Labor, they hate workers period, unionized or not.

It is the WalMart House of Representatives.

Can we just cut out the bullshit and get back to indentured servitude already?

After CU, this is a sprint to the finish line to completely destroy unions bef 2012 election.

Wasn’t there a union that argued in favor of CU? Musta seemed like a good idea at the time.

True dat, but unions are the only major political contributor in the way of complete corp takeover of govt.

I thought unions had helped provide a livable wage for middle class workers?

Ironically if it wasn’t for union dues these workers wouldn’t need to rely food stamps.

the only talking point you have is “they hate”..which is just laughable.
Nobody hates workers or wants anyone to starve. What nonsense and you know it. We, the taxpayers, who want something done about these unsustainable entitlements are the worker..

For the GOPers, wage slaves are, well, slaves. Slaves are, by definition, less than fully human. They must be less than fully human because their servitude would worry the fully human who might come to suspect that they too are meant for the yoke.

GAAAAAAHHHHHH

this is not entirely accurate, and this is like the millionth time I’ve read this today. And I have been leaving comments for everyone who has posted it. In fact, I’d bet you $20.00 that the update at think progress is because of me.

I read this article this morning: I work at a hunger relief organization in Philadelphia that signs people up for food stamps (now known as SNAP), and asked our policy manager about this.

Here are the actual facts. Since 2008, as the update accurately points out, striking workers and their families have been ineligible for SNAP. A woman here at work that’s been doing this says the policy dates back AT LEAST to the 1990s, and maybe even further. So it’s ALREADY POLICY to deny food stamps to strikers and their families. In fact, “are you on strike” is on the questionnaire applicants need to complete.

But second of all, the GOP proposal is nothing but posturing (total dickhead posturing, but posturing nonetheless). County Assistance offices, which is where most people enroll for food stamps, are overworked and have huge backlogs. That’s why my employers do food stamp screening, because of the delays and understaffing.

County assistnce offices don’t have enough resources to properly process current applications: they certainly don’t have the time to go through their databases to see which applicants belong to a union and which union happens to be on strike. The only way, according to our policy manager, that they could cut the benefits of a family already enrolled in food stamps, is for a striker to go into the county assistance office and tell them, “hey guys, those food stamps I’m on? I just went on strike, please cancel them.”

So to make it short: it’s already policy to deny food stamps to the families of striking workers, and the GOP proposal is unworkable posturing.

I love the photo..”Stop the war on workers”

well I say to you:
“STOP THE WAR ON THE WORKING TAXPAYER”

Thank Dog Blanche kept EFCA from becoming law, protecting Capital from those predatory workers and their captive, bought legislators!

Boehner, head of the gang of corrupt politicians in the House is from Ohio.

If one tenth of the effort being put forward in Ohio, to try to keep the state government going totally insane for the Koch Brothers and Rupert Murdoch, were used to make Boehner unelectable in his next run then something good might come out of it.

So much time and effort wasted trying to change small things.

Go after the known leaders. Not some penny ante two bit amoral crook. Get the head.

It can be done in a short time. Just go door to door and explain why he is specifically targeting his own constituents with nonsense.

If he is vulnerable to “unelectable,” the rest of the gang will run for cover.

He has to go up for reelection. He has to be reelected to hold on to any power.

It looks so simple to me.

We keep acting like the GOP is working alone.
Well they are not

the GOP,Koch Brothers, and the rest of the ultra rich know they have a great friend in the WH, Obama.

issues like this show all progressives how evil OBAMA really is.

In 2008, real dems stood in the rain to vote for Obama, knock on doors for months to vote for Obama, made phone calls to their hands bleed for Obama, and what has Obama done for real dems and progressives? Nothing!

some are now saying the OBAMA WH has hurt progressives more than Bush. I agree

We can’t ignore the fact that if we had an avg Dem president in the WH, Unions, Working people, basically the middle class would not be getting attack like this.

Obama help create and develop the current political climate where stupid GOPers can attack the Dem Base with no fear!

Does anyone think that FDR, JFK, LBJ, would let stupid republicans attack the Dem base, without forcing the republicans to pay a huge price? No

remember this simple fact! Obama always reaches out to people like McConnel, Boehner, more than he ever reaches out to people liks Bernie Sanders

All this said Obama would rather drink a beer with Palin and McCain than have a cold one with Dennis K.

A funny, funny troll. Run along troll.

But do you ask if my spouse is on strike? I mean, what if the head of household is on strike and the non-working spouse applies for assistance? Or are you now asking “Is anyone in your household on strike?”

Because it sounds like the new proposal goes beyond punishing one member of a family, and now they plan to punish the entire family. Unless I have misread your report, and Jon’s too.

I bet you are just a load of fun at your neighborhood parties. Do you make these pronouncements to your neighbors who are school teachers and working tax payers? How about your neighbor’s who are cops, firefighters, emergency service workers and working taxpayers? Do you go out and rail and holler at the trash collectors (who are also working taxpayers)? Do you holler at the folks at the DMV or the State Cop when he gives you a ticket because you didn’t think those speeding laws were meant for you? All these people are working taxpayers, in case you missed it.

I don’t believe the GOPers expect unions to provide decisive support to the DPers. It may bother them in the abstract. But unions have not been a real factor in DP politics for quite some time. To my mind, what drives the GOPers is the effort to thoroughly crush their alleged inferiors while making money as a result. These efforts express the totalitarian component in their ideology. It cuts through every social bond human beings can have.

Orwell put the situation thusly:

There will be no curiosity, no enjoyment of the process of life. All competing pleasures will be destroyed. But always— do not forget this, Winston— always there will be the intoxication of power, constantly increasing and constantly growing subtler. Always, at every moment, there will be the thrill of victory, the sensation of trampling on an enemy who is helpless. If you want a picture of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face— forever.

good, if you decide to not work, ie: strike, then certainly one should not expect for the taxpayer to take up the slack and provide you with food stamps or any other kind of assistance..You choose the behavior, you choose the consequences. You are not a victim!

teddy, punishing the whole family is ALREADY POLICY. I know this FOR A FACT.

Current policy is “if anyone in the household is on strike”. I have asked three people at work about this today.

how about we disallow BOTH corps. and unions from political contributions
and sleeping in the Lincoln bedroom.

~~~Edited by Moderator. Disagree without being disagreeable~~~ it’s totally unfair.

I thought unions still provided a lot of GOTV for Ds.

So the father is on strike for better wages a good thing to do is punish the school age children by denying the entire family the use of food stamps?

Or I guess, those kids should not be getting an education but should suck it up and go out and get jobs right? After all, how old do you have to be to clean toilets or pick fruit or pull lettuce or something?

We’ve got two now. I’m past the point of irritation and have moved on to the “not giving a fuck” stage.

They do. You are correct.

Workers at the DMV, yes!!
There is one difference..I will be working and paying for their retirement, healthcare, and god knows what else until I die..They will not be working and paying for mine..And that my friend is why you are seeing this taxpayer revolt..because the rubber has finally hit the road..

I am looking right now at our SNAP screening handbook, revised 10/06/09. I quote: “Strikers: make the whole household ineligible”.

Just because you heard something for the first time doesn’t make it news.

unfair?? you’re kidding, right??

I love you. You are a valuable human being. Thank you for being here.

That’s tolerance!

There is not a brain between them.

Since they’re sitting on David Koch’s knees, I’d agree.

All competing pleasures will be destroyed.
Exactly what Unions do..remove competition
re-read Orwell..

Haven’t read the comments yet, so if it’s already covered, my bad.

This is ALREADY the law. Has been.

In fact, before you go blaming “Republicans” for this, it should be noted that a bill was introduced to do away with this bullshit in the LAST CONGRESS (by whom I forget, sorry), you know, that Congress that had HUGE DEMOCRATIC majorities???? Yeah, it went nowhere in a Democratic House, a Democratic Senate, and with a Democratic President.

It’s not JUST the Republicans that are at war with the working class.

Fine that’s the DMV. I’m not sure if anyone in any state is a fan of their local DMV. But what about the teachers and firefighters and cops and emergency service workers?

If the AFL-CIO had a decisive voice in DP politics, where was the DP when it came time to put the Employee Free Choice Act through Congress, where was the Party elite when it came time to destroy G.H.W. Bush’s NAFTA treaty, etc. to recall two labor destroying political campaigns which the DP wholly owns?

Big Labor has long been happy with the crumbs that fall its way. That’s what Big Labor gets for sitting at the low — real low — end of the table.

Ya think “father” should think of that before he decides to not work???

I think the GOPs current move will go down in history as one of the greatest feats of disinformation in history.

They’ve managed to convince the average American taxpayer that the enemy in our current economic meltdown is … the average American taxpayer.

They’ve made the GOP base hate themselves.

The most twisted part is the base doesn’t even realize it. They own none of it.

WTF is your answer then, government workers work for free?

Oh, I know, why we’ll have no government workers, therefore no government!!!!

Yayy!!!

This is the most idiotic statement I’ve ever read on a comment section, and let me say, that is SAYING SOMETHING.

Congratulations!

i think it’s unfair to target the whole household, yes.

Like I said, ther is one difference….I will be working and paying for their retirement, healthcare, and god knows what else until I die..They will not be working and paying for mine..And that my friend is why you are seeing this taxpayer revolt..because the rubber has finally met the road.

Maybe the corporation or business entity that he works for should pay him a living wage in the first place, seeing as how they’re raking in record profits over the last two years.

I like how “refusing to work because of unsafe or otherwise poor conditions until management comes to the table” is “decides not to work”, as if striking is some new form of laziness.

that’s nonsense.

ah, didn’t realize alamode was alatroll. My bad.

I haven’t known unions to be opposed to multiple forms of pleasure. So, I cannot tell where you cam up with this ‘rebuttal’.

How in the world did you read that into my comments???
Wow, what have you been drinking today??

You’re forgetting that these public employees contribute to their benefits, retirement, and pensions THEIR ENTIRE CAREERS.

You are merely subsidizing these things with your tax dollars. We do this to draw talent into the public sector by offering superior benefits, seeing as public service needs highly skilled and educated people to meet the needs of society.

Surely you can understand this.

good to see you haven’t lost your touch – lol

welcome back

If things are to the point that they are unsafe and the company is unwilling to make the necessary changes it is time they look for a new job.

We are not talking about corporations. We are talking about PUBLIC EMPLOYEE UNIONS…

It is sheer nonsense.

Strikes for better wages, better working conditions, and fair treatment are the only mechanism employees have to affect change. Striking is often a necessity. The only means to fight the ever-hungry greed machine of Corporate America.

You seem to miss the point that they are also tax payers. Do you think that folks who daily risk their lives to protect you should work forever? Do you think that no one working in government should ever earn any type of living wage, no matter how much school they may have had to gain the skills to do the work?

Just out of curiosity, what is your field of working?

GET THIS…I DON’T WANT TO SUBSIDIZE..THE ONLY ONE WHO SUBSIDIZES MINE IS ME..

~~~Mod Note: Indoor voice please. No need to shout~~~

But what do they get for their work? Is the DP defending and extending the interests of the working class in general or, for that matter, Big Labor in particular?

I don’t understand in many areas of the country teachers are averaging upwards of 75k a year. That isn’t enough to draw talent? And that is for call it 9 months of work…Gross it up for the full year and its a six figure salary on average.

Or… I’ve got a better idea! Maybe those companies could pony up a little dough for the safety of their employees.

You’re presenting us with an immoral choice. Either work an unsafe job or don’t work.

Where the fuck is the logic in that?

alamode isn’t paid to understand that.

Rahm called them f’n retards after which union leaders either went into the veal pen or showed up at the WH to lick his balls.

completely irrelevant..and I dont miss any point

So we’re back to “I’ve got mine, fuck everybody else?”

Get off the roads, then. Or the telecom line you’re using to connect to this website. Taxes pay for infrastructure and the people who run it.

Your a self-sufficient Counterfeiter?

Show me links.

How are there going to be government workers if non-government workers aren’t “paying for their retirement, healthcare, and god knows what else until I die” in the form of taxes?

Your statement read like you didn’t want to pay for their retirement, healthcare, etc. So how about explaining how the government can ever employ workers without taxpayers paying for their compensation.

BTW, government workers pay taxes to, so you know, they too pay for “their retirement, healthcare, and god knows what else.”

Oh, and I’ve had a nice big dose of Giant brand Fat Free Milk. Along with a couple of glasses of water. Good stuff.

here is a suburb of Philadelphia….

http://projects.mcall.com/teacher_pay/county/BUCKS/ave_salary/1/

appreciate the edit. No need for that type of language

Average Elementary School Teacher Wage – $32k – $49k

So when you claim that again, we’ll know you’re lying.

probably one of those Wackenhut folks making $9/hr working nuclear reactor security

ducks, runs over to twitter

And there you go again, if you, or all of us, don’t pay for their compensation through taxes, how will there be any government workers Einstein?

More bullshit.

I see your motif now.

Spreading bullshit, from east to west.

really? so you pave your own roads at hyour own expense? you maintain your own sewer line, at your own expense? you maintain, at your own personal, out-of-pocket expense, the stretch of highway that runs around wherever you live, and you never drive in other areas that you haven’t paid for? You process your own water and do your own meat inspections? You paid 100% out of pocket for school, with no student loans? You pay more than the rest of us for gasoline?

Bullshit.

Are you going to receive Social Security when you retire?

When the trolls bridges are on fire, they can put it out themselves and not bitch at the union firefighters.

they get a salary, just like I do..then they plan for their own future..just like I do..they take responsibility for their own lives..just like I do..

Check that against the average of all people working for that particular school district.

alamode gets ALL the jokes. How does alamode know he gets ALL the jokes?

NO

I’m sorry you disagree

but I did post a link supporting my claim

WTF?

And who’s going to pay that salary if the taxpayers don’t? You just said above, TWICE, that you didn’t want to pay for their compensation.

They are sustainable. You just want something for nothing.

I’m OK with fire fighters and EMTs… cops we could do without. T

Capital likes labor – they exploit it… without labor they couldn’t steal/take the wealth labor creates.

Can’t create wealth (real wealth) without labor.

Note to Jon Walker strikers rule not eligible for food stamps, 1988.

Also see not for strikers: “THE wives and children of men who are on strike lost one of their rights on March 23rd, when the Supreme Court upheld, by five votes to three, Congress’s decision in 1981 that they could be denied food stamps. “

Howdy hi,

you don’t pay for public employee pensions, they do. It’s one of the deals for accepting lower pay than in the private sector. But oh, hey, the private sector isn’t paying higher wages any more. Hmmm. How did that happen? Maybe you should push your own employer for a pension instead of begrudging others theirs.

If we employ people, we have to pay them. And those are jobs that don’t get outsourced. boo hoo.

Interesting. So you don’t pay into Social Security. Does anyone in your family do so, or is there anyone in your family receiving those benefits?

while I’m at it,

Hey GOP, thanks for the JOBS!!! /s

Also note that the median household income per capita for Netwon, PA (Above mentioned school district) is $35k+ per year. Where I live, in the San Francisco Bay Area, it’s $23k+ per year.

Also worth mentioning that Newton is 98.4% white people.

On edit – forgot link. http://www.city-data.com/city/West-Newton-Pennsylvania.html

That “$75k” is including benefits. Do you say “I make $100K” when talking salary or do you say “I make $50k plus benefits”? This has average teacher salaries by state.

And that “for 9 months work” is BS as well. Most states require teachers to continue to a Masters degree (if not a doctorate) and to take further education classes beyond to stay current. They have to take those classes during the summer when they are not drawing their salaries (and benefits don’t pay rent, house payments, car payments or food)

sorry to go off topic – but the UAW strikes back – http://www.freep.com/article/20110324/NEWS01/110324026/UAW-forces-Bank-America-close-temporarily-over-taking-government-money?odyssey=tab

I like your slogan, quite a bit. Can you please call up your reps and congresscritters and tell them to stop these expensive wars and stop allowing banks to suck out all the public funds? thanks so much.

Now we’re talking about two different things.

You suggested we needed these benefits to bring skilled people into the public sector and now you’re using non skilled jobs as your baseline for compensation. The woman working part time serving lunch in the cafeteria is not the same college educated and skilled laborer you are trying to attract from the private sector.

I’d like to believe they learned something then but…..

Cuing Bob King to slither to the spotlight from stage right.

The issue isn’t paying for their compensation, the issue is OVERPAYING for their compensation. And guess who sets their compensation? Politicians, and guess who contributes money to politicians? Unions. Conflict of interest much?

But it’s not irrelevant. They pay taxes just as you do. You consider it irrelevant as it doesn’t fall into your drive to make any public sector employee a demon

Why would you gross it up? Wouldn’t average salary include the money some teachers make from teaching summer school? What kind of work can teachers get for the 3 months they are not teaching? Who hires for 3 months?

On the other hand, that number also factors in the salaries of the principals, vice principals, board members, etc. I’d *guess* that the salaries of those college grads, who most assuredly make more than the teachers, more than balances out the salaries of the lunch ladies and janitors.

Is it BS? A lot of teachers around here spend their summers in other lines of work tutoring or running camps. I have a hard time believing they could find time to work a second job if they were working full time all summer.

that’s ridiculous. So the choice is “accept bad work conditions or find another job”?

how much do you get paid to spew nonsense?

I call bullshit on the “many areas of the country” NOT the fact that in some, and they are the MINORITY, areas, you can find those numbers.

And I stand by my call of bullshit regarding many areas of the country. Because the fact is, those numbers are the exception, not the rule. And no matter how many times you want to repeat them, they are not indiciative of most teachers.

And BTW, those areas that DO pay those salaries?? Take a look at who lives there, then you’ll understand why there are, yes, some areas where teachers get paid big bucks. It’s because the people living in that area make even bigger bucks, and want the very best for their little angels.

I mentioned above many teachers spend summers tutoring or working at local summer camps. Other don’t work at all. Families will pay plenty to get their kids out of the house for all or part of the summer.

Almost all voters do not belong to unions and most political contributions do not come from unions.

If I didn’t like the conditions I was working under yes, I would look for another job. Why is that so foreign a concept?

So I wonder about this situation. Say two people of the same gender are married California. Some people could married before Prop H8. So one is on food stamps and the other works for a union. A strike occurs. If the Feds go after them doesn’t that recognize the marriage? If they don’t go after them then the Feds are not enforcing the law against everyone.

I didn’t say they were working jobs – but the summer time is when they often take classes. It is easier to take classes in summer, even if working as a tutor or camp counselor as those don’t require as much night time, school district work as regular school year teaching positions do.

Are you saying teachers’ summer supplemental jobs pay as well as teaching during the 9 month school year? So that it is a direct multiplication by 4/3? If so, prove it.

And when there are NO other jobs?

http://econfaculty.gmu.edu/wew/articles/11/PublicEmployeeUnions

do you think, all of those brave Americans died so Americans could work for third world wages? Yes you do

how much should teachers make?
how much should US Soldiers make ?
how much should Wall Street Bankers Make?

please tell us Headed West

headedwest is either a troll or a time traveler from the 1800s. How do you feel about child labor laws?

excellent links

so what are they after here ? or did some wonk misread the proposed bill ?

or dot dot dot are they trying to codify something – a la what Obama did with the Hyde amendment via the Stupak E.O. ?

That isn’t what I am saying at all.

I’m saying teachers are earning additional income outside of their teaching jobs

Yeah, most voters don’t work for finance either yet everyone complains how much they give to politicians.

As for who contributes a lot:
http://www.opensecrets.org/orgs/list.php

You’ll find unions are fairly well represented at the top.

A third world wage? How many people in the third world are making 50K+

econfaculty? What school is that?

Whoa a real hotbed of mis-information, delusions, illusions, rightwing talking points, and lying stats…

Outta here. Good to those of you with the mettle & intestinal fortitude to attempt a (sometimes civil) discourse on this.

David’s upstairs with Syria news.

The link is an opinion paper written by an Econ Professor from George Mason U.

The point is why they should have to. In your job you probably work 8 hours a day – usually. Teachers spend hours at home grading papers, etc. when they could and should be spending time with their own families.
Teachers have lives.

Is that the world we live in? no jobs? or just not any jobs your interested in?

court decision here. The court decided on an amendment passed by a democratically controlled congress.

I just found it. Introduced in 2009 by Joe Baca. That’s right, introduced in the Congress of heavily a heavily D House and Senate with a D President that went…… NOWHERE.

Before you blame the Senate, I don’t even think it passed the House.

Why won’t folks accept that the Democrats are in on this tag team too?

http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bill.xpd?bill=h111-3048

They don’t have to, they choose to

I call bullshit on the “call it 9 months of work” too. Many teachers have to take part-time jobs in the summer to make ends meet. And very few work an 8-hour day, since they spend evenings and weekends grading papers, creating lesson plans, etc. as well as (in many cases) spending from their own pockets for classroom supplies.

We need better trolls.

no, i think this is an example of “this is the first i heard of it, so it must be news.”

Although to be fair, it does sound like something the GOP would do. But it was the democrats in the house and the republcians in the senate that came up with it.

That dollar figure for teachers (and I have several in my family) is utter bullshit, troll.

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2011/03/08/union_myths_109142.html

The paper says 40% of public employees are unionized.

They don’t have to do what?

With an average of five applicants for every job, yes, it is more the former

Hey, RoyalOak, OT question: do you live in Royal Oak, MI? I built a house there and lived there for 8+ years.

George Mason (note the ‘gmu dot edu’)

Sorry if this has already been posted, but in case it hasn’t…looks like this has been an issue for quite a while…

FOOD STAMP ELIGIBILITY, STRIKER AMENDMENT, ETC

United States Court of Appeals, Sixth Circuit. – 825 F.2d 1046
Argued Aug. 5, 1986.Decided Aug. 6, 1987

1
This appeal challenges the constitionality, on First Amendment and equal protection grounds, of the 1980 and 1981 amendments to the Food Stamp Act of 1977, 7 U.S.C. Sec. 2011, et seq. The challenged amendments remove from eligibility for food stamps those persons engaged in labor strikes unless their households had been eligible to receive food stamps before the strike….

Etc.

In case you’ve had your head buried in the sand, right now the world we live in is such that there are more than 5 applicants for every 1 job. So if a person is being told on the job to take ILLEGAL risks, then if in this climate of jobs being so scarce, you bet he/she should have the right to strike for safter conditions rather than risk being completely unemployed.

Keep trying, but the only thing you’re still spreading west is bullshit.

Ask the people who have been out of work for 99+ weeks how easy your simplistic “look for another job” is.

I have to take some exception with child labor laws..I grew up working on a farm..that experience molded me into a self reliant, self sufficient adult..would not change it for the world.. perhaps if we get the kids of today to work, the dropout rates would fall, the drug problems would minimize and teen pregnancy would diminish. When you are working every day after school and all during the summer, you have less time to get into things you should not be into.

Yup. How long ago were you here?

Gross it up for the full year and its a six figure salary on average.

That’s what you said. Prove it.

Are you saying that we should mandate that children work?

Why, have a life of course. I think in HeadedWest world, all teachers should be “Old Maid Spinsters” – unless they are the football coach of course.

Hell, I thought it was a Cool $Trillion. I guess I was misinformed.

And what is wrong with George Mason Univ?? Or Walter Williams..unless you are biggoted??

LOL

do you have kids?

Now THERE’s a source I would turn to for reliable reporting. /s

Oh for heavens sakes..how do you come to that conclusion??
We should not disallow it..it’s not the government’s business

so Jon, when are you going to amend your post?

The only things I know of George Mason is they make the U Chicago economist seem almost liberal (and no, that is not a compliment for either group) and when I have seen Walter Williams columns I have been underwhelmed by them. Why should that make me “biggoted”? (Since I have no knowledge of him other than as a right wing columnist)

Headedwest, everyone here is a victim

Alamode,

Do you shop ? Go to a grocery store ? Buy gas ? Go out to eat ? Etc., etc. Every time you make a purchase, you’re paying for those employees health benefits, retirement and wages. When we purchase products and services that you personally make, we’re supporting your retirement, wages, health benefits. We’re all in this together, you’re not an island unto yourself.

Now, if Billionaire’s and Corporations were taxed appropriately, there would be even more money in circulation, thereby increasing demand for your services and increasing your wages, health benefits, retirement.

Make sense ?

Yeah, kinda like all those Greenberg Quinlan Rosner polls that the unions pay for. Real reliable. /s

Then perhaps you should read more of him and Dr. Thomas Sowell..you could become enlightened!!!

good grief!

They don’t have to, they choose to

Many of them HAVE to because they don’t make enough to live on and support their families.

What an elitist you are.

WOW.

My statement at 40 above has already been superceded.

Methinks there are some trolls that should remember the advice:

“You can remain quiet and others and may wonder if you’re a fool, or you can say something and remove all doubt.”

Sorry for my responding to the trolls.

My bad.

He’s the Clarence Thomas of economists.

George Mason is not Ivy League. It’s not a prestigious school.

Is it bullshit? Or maybe your family members just don’t live in these particular areas?

I moved into my house in 1992, moved away (to Cincinnati) in 2000, and to South Bend IN in 2003.

elitist? I’m arguing that making $50k+ is a pretty good living

So the dude’s a (so-called) “libertarian,” eh? Why don’t you invite him in to defend his position?

kids are already allowed to take jobs, if certain conditions set by the states and feds are met. I worked from age 13 on, in RI. In NJ, my younger brother did not, because of state laws.

but it is the government’s business. and here’s why. So no, it is the government’s business.

No, because pensions and healthcare are rarely paid for in the private sector. And yes I am an island unto myself..I don’t want to be part of a collective..and stop telling me that I have to be..I will strive to be a free individual..
Secondly, Corporations do not pay taxes..individuals do..When a corp. pays a tax, they pass that expense on to the consumer..therefore, you, the consumer pays the taxes..
Make sense?

Don’t know where you live but in California, the monthly salary in $50K will hardly get you a decent and safe place to live. And forget food, a car, etc.

Was working on the farm at age 6..get over it

As I said, I’ve read enough of his columns (and those of Sowell) to be quite underwhelmed at their reasoning and analysis.

Whatever it is they provide, I don’t think it fits a definition of Enlightenment. Unless “enlightenment” is defined as “let’s turn the economic world back to the 1890s”

That depends on where you are in California doesn’t it? Looking at February home sales in California now. A lot of places you can buy a home for ~$250

By the way, your boy states:

Prior to capitalism, the way people amassed great wealth was by looting, plundering and enslaving their fellow man. Capitalism made it possible to become wealthy by serving your fellow man.”[6]

Try to fit that square peg statement into the round hole economy owned and controlled by oligarchs / plutocrats / kleptocrats. Because (drum roll, please) that’s the reality in this country, and that reality has only gained momentum in the past 30 years (the last 10, in particular).

Learn it. Know it. Live it.

Wow. You are a real ~~~Edited by Moderator~~~ Send me a private message. I (and I am sure many others) would be happy to visit you ~~~Edited by Moderator~~~ you regarding this issue.

~~~Mod Note: Dial it back a few degrees~~~

It is not the governments business

Feeding the chickens or driving the harvester?

He is exactly right..name one place, without a capitalist economy which has reaped the level of wealth that this country has…it is impossible..

And forget food, a car, etc.

I thought these were supposed to be committed educators. You expect them to take time out of their teaching schedules to eat, too? Absolutely unacceptable. Clearly, they’re sponging off the system.

now we are allowing physical threats on this site?

working in the fields..

Of course, you also realize that that $50k is after at least ten years of working and most teacher jobs start at $25k to $30k (out of which the teacher has to provide for things like food, housing, car, insurance, clothing, AND pay for college loans.)

I addressed this here but doubt if you would actually accept the reasoning used.

Doing what?

elitist? I’m arguing that making $50k+ is a pretty good living

Depending on where you live and the number in your family, that isn’t a whole lot above poverty level. You assume that a person making $50K a year has only him/herself to support.

Elitist.

And the past 30 years? The past 10? Defend your position with actual, ya know, facts.

And walking 5 miles to school in the snow. s/

Uphill both ways. No shoes, either.

I guess if you believe every family deserves a 3000 sq ft home, a cadilac in the driveway and a flat screen tv with satalite tv you’re right. $50k isn’t a lot

And walking 5 miles to school in the snow.

Uphill. Both ways.

$50K/year won’t cover food, shelter, transportation, insurance, etc. for a family of 5 or 6, never mind the amenities you seem to assume come with incomes over the poverty level.

and you realize that after a certain point those teachers will be making more than the average…..

I can’t think of a job where without any experience you are making at more more than the mean salary as soon as you step into teh position. Professional athlete I guess….

The median home price in this country is $221k. I don’t think making 50k is scrapping the bottom of the barrel as far as compensation.

Uphill. Both ways.

Oh shit! What’re you drinking?

Arguing with these snotty elitist trolls is futile. I’m moving on to something more worthwhile.

Nothing but iced tea yet, but these trolls are driving me to the hard stuff. *G*

Think of it in terms of monthly. Changes the picture. A family of 4 cannot live on it.

It would appear this website has drawn the attention of the Chamber.

Right, but you seem to think that all teachers are “making” $75K – or do you accept that by including the benefits in that figure early on you were in fact making a BS comparison?

In order to be making more than the average, folks usually have to be doing extra details, whether it is coaching or something similar. Or have a lot of years in as an educator.

I don’t understand what is so elitist

Should have stopped at a family of 2 then…I don’t really know what to say? There has to be some element of family planning involved. Maybe both parents work…even if part time. We can’t solve all issues for all people.

Yeah, how dare teachers decide to have children!

You really are something. In other words teachers should not have children.

I said teachers in some areas. I did not say all teachers

That is not what I am saying either.

I’m suggesting that if someone does not think they will be able to support a child or several children they should reconsider having them. That said, I know many people who make less than 50k a year and support a family.

Let’s break it down, shall we?

Rent for my family of four, a 2 bedroom apartment – $1,195 per month.
Groceries for my family of 4 – $700-800 per month.
Childcare for the 2 children – $860 per month.
Electric bill – $150 per month.
Phone bill – $50 per month.
Gas for commuting – $200 per month.

This does not factor in our cell phone bills, our cable and highspeed internet, and any entertainment. Neither does it factor in clothing, hygeine products, or car insurance or auto maintenance.

The budget above is bare minimum expenses, and amounts to roughly $3250 per month, or $39k per year. With a pre-tax income of 50k, the bills are not even covered.

I’d suggest you examine reality, HeadedWest.

*slides an iced tea down the bar*

It helps to know where the person are living in this scenario, why there is only one income and why they chose to have multiple children while realizing that you were unable to afford them. There are always going to be situations that don’t work out and that is incredibly sad. However these are special circumstances not the majority.

yes it is. I have settled law behind me, and you have what’s called “wishful thinking”.

how much do the koch brothers pay you?

You know what’s common with trolls is that they really don’t like people very much at all. They don’t like us, so they come here to disrupt and piss us off.

They don’t like the people they’re talking about, you know teachers, firefighters, etc.

I think it’s because they really don’t like themselves and can only make themselves feel better by demeaning others. It’s a sickness.

Newark, CA. Roughly 40,000 people. Just south of Hayward, about 20 miles south of Oakland, 15 miles north of San Jose.

But it seems that you like to use that figure to tar all teachers or you wouldn’t have used it.

There are all sorts of exceptions in every field. Should we judge every career by the exceptions within it and use those exceptions as the basis on which to judge?

Absolutely right.

Well said.

My daughter is an elementary school teacher. She earns about $32K for the school year.

What a bunch of despicable rat-fuck rotten bastards. Geez, I’m 63 and thought I’d seen pettiness, meanness, and spitefulness when Nixon and Co. were in power. These assholes could give Stalin lessons.

Teachers in that area are averaging $75k on average not $50k. That should more than cover the $39k in fixed expenses. If the spouse were to even find part time work, Starbucks or bookstore that would push the families income close to 6 figures

He is out working in his field now.

I had to to laugh as the modding of my comment actually made it sound more threatening. :)

I bought my first RO house around 1983 (a few houses off Woodward near Onion Roll Deli), bought another/moved in 1988 (near bicycle hill/Vinsetta) and I’m still there. Lots of movie people in RO – they shot a bunch of Red Dawn half a block away.

Interesting troll fest. I think most of the reichwing anti-union, public or private sector, talking points have been used. Not that they care about how much is true or how much is horseshit.

What is funny is that I don’t think I have been derogatory towards anyone here. I’m interested in having a conversation and when confronted with thoughts or ideas that many locals here disagree with I am called names and such. If there is anyone trying to be nasty and spiteful it is not me.

you forgot “paid” – snotty elitist paid trolls…..

Don’t believe you. Working farming fields at the age of 6? gimme a break.

They don’t like the people they’re talking about, you know teachers, firefighters, etc.

Teachers. Filling our childrens’ heads with that communist evolution crap, when everybody knows that people and dinosaurs lived together. And firefighters. Running into burning buildings on purpose just for the sheer, ya know, thrill of it. Like the taxpayers should have to pay for that. These freeloaders need to go back where they came from.

In case you missed the comments, I’ll just say again, this no food stamps for families with a family member on strike IS NOT NEW. It’s been this way for some time, I know this because my father was a union organizer and this was one of his pet peeves before he passed on.

And I would also like to point out, AGAIN, that in 2009, when the Democrats had HUGE MAJORITIES in both houses AND the Presidency, a bill was introduced in the House to end this sanction.

It went NOWHERE. The Democrats could’ve changed it, there was a bill to do so in 2009, and THEY CHOSE not to.

http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bill.xpd?bill=h111-3048

Nixon wouldn’t even make the Crazy Cut these days. Same as for Reagan, multiple Repuglican Reagasms notwithstanding.

The average teacher salary in Newark Unified School District is $55,489.

See my comment at 218.

Kris, he likes to include benefits as part of the salary doncha know

Your complete disregard for the humanity and dignity of others in our society struggling to make ends meat is both nasty and spiteful, IMO.

And, as always, the attitude of “I’ve got mine, fuck everyone else” disgusts me, but every time I see it I do hope that my atheist tendencies are wrong and someday there will be a judgement day, because I hope to see all of those that espouse that bullshit have to explain it.

http://www.ed-data.k12.ca.us/fiscal/TeacherSalary.asp?tab=0&level=06&ReportNumber=4096&County=1&fyr=0910&District=61234

I asked him what but he disappeared. I was on a farm from age 5 through 12 and my brothers and I had chores but I wouldn’t characterize it as work. We didn’t get paid for it.

Well said, OFG!

Not at all close to the median home prices where I live, which are much much higher. Nice to quote stats to fit with your desired version of reality.

People who live in areas of the country, where that is the median home price, often make concomittantly *lower* salalries, not the high-falutin’ $75k that some rightwingers love to bandy about.

In areas of the country – usually either coast – where the median home value is often much higher than $220k, the salaries *trend* higher, but then everything else is more costly. Try comparing costs between almost any part of CA where there’s significant population v. Nebraska or North Dakota.

Some here are simply comparing apples to oranges, and then saying: oh really? You people could “live within your means” if only tried… or decided not to have so many kids or whatever.

Also a lot of the people I know who are struggling to make it do NOT fit into the rightwing victimizing schema of being folks who drive expensive cars & have big flat-screen tvs and then whine about not having enough.

The folks I know live very modestly but still find it a struggle. It’s easy to demonize people when you impose some pre-conceived notions on them and live in the deluded belief system that they brought all their troubles onto themselves thru over-extending themselves. That’s simply not always the case.

Not that they care about how much is true or how much is horseshit.

I thought they actually worked at making sure all the talking points were horseshit. Damn! I stand corrected again.

My numbers are from 2011, not 2009-10. Newark has furloughed a number of teachers with seniority and hired younger folks with lower salaries, as well as a district-wide pay cut of 10%.

The trolls don’t consider the regional cost of living when complaining about high salaries. Workers of all stripes in the New York area make more than practically anywhere else in the country, so when the trolls talk of teachers making $75K they don’t add that that’s prolly in the New York area. A table of comparable wages would add some sense to the discussion.

Exactly – I also called b.s. on that. I had relatives who lived on working farms when I was kid, and in the summer I sometimes spent time on them. I also did “real” farm chores at a young age, but I would hardly characterize it as “working in the fields.”

Spare me. These libertarians like to believe that they’re still living in some Galtian wild west pioneer day fantasy. And they start *believing* their fantasies, more’s the pity.

Correction, she makes $28K for the school year.

how long has she been teaching? what area of the country?

Sorry, went off to something else.

The house I built is on Edmund, between Rochester & Main north of 13 mile. Nice older neighborhood with big trees, smallish houses (mine was 1800 sq.ft.). I could walk places, which was nice.

Florida teacher salaries.

King Rick I has just signed a bill designed to destroy the public school system in FL.

You look a bit familiar – were you involved in the schools at all, like fighting the Bd of Ed on certain things?

Exactly. See what I said @225.

frankly I’ve lived in some pretty high cost of living ares – but not NYC – and I know a LOT of teachers. I know absolutely NO ONE who makes $75k per year as a base salary. Perhaps if you add up all the benefits, some longer term teacher salaries come up to $75k.

Most long-time teachers I know – in higher cost of living areas – are making around $65k base salary.

Plus these rightwingers LOVE to make a huge deal about “all the time off.” I witness my roommate daily. She puts in, like, at least 10 hours per day (I am not exaggerating) by the time she spends uncompensated extra time after the school day either working with/tutoring kids (not making extra money), meeting with parents, going to teacher meetings, AND THEN she comes homes and does “home work” (ie, grades student’s work and data enters it into the shcool’s database).

I have not the slightest issue with the amount of time she gets off, as she really *earned* it. People who love to run down teachers should try it for one day. It’s NOT easy. Try being “on” all day long in front of groups of students, managing them, trying to teach them, and dealing with a lot of other issues. There’s hardly a minute off to breath.

Teachers need some time off to re-charge. Big deal! Get over it. If you’re so INSANELY JEALOUS of what teacher’s earn, then go PAY for and work hard to the get the multiple degrees to become a teacher.

Sheesh!!!!!

$75K per year in NYC is not a high salary. If you want to live in Manhattan and make only $75K, expect to share space with roommates or to live in a closet.

You were very close to me!

Indianapolis, IN. 5 years.

Gotta run. Happy trolling!

True enough, and frankly, it’s not that high of a salary in most major metropolitan areas.

What is the median sales price of a home in Florida? C

Sorry, I havn’t been through all 200 plus comment here but I still have this to say. I see nothing wrong with someone striking and still receiving benefits. Maybe after some extended time ok but not initially. I consider that a right. Also, all the talk about taxes is bull shit. Everyone who can afford it pays taxes and you don’t get to say what it is for. If you can then I want to stop paying for these fucking wars. Taxes need to be fairly assessed, like the rich do NOT pay enough tax.

King Rick is an even worse sociopath than the average Repuglican officeholder. If that’s even possible…

VERY small world! I really liked Royal Oak. My builder lived on the next street (Sunnybrook) and was building a house on spec, and owned another lot a few doors away. I kept stopping by every couple of Sundays when he’d have his spec house “open” and I decided I would try to sell my condo. Meanwhile I drew his spec house on my computer (MacDraw in those days) and started tweaking. He sold his spec house at the same time I finally sold my condo, so I was able to have him build my version on his extra lot – he took my drawing to an architect and had it made into real house plans). He and his wife and kids became good friends. He had his own building crew and put a lot of things in that I wouldn’t have thought to ask for.

The trolls don’t consider anything but themselves and their personal financial stakes.

What really rattles my cage is this; why the fuck are they so up in arms about teacher salaries? What is missing in the lives that would be enhanced if teachers or other public sector union employees made less money?

Show me where the fucking money would go, or should go.

From realtor.org

Scroll down to Miami, Tallahassee and Tampa/St Pete/Clearwater.

helpful thanks

Looks like they could be the most affordable big cities in the country

There’s a country for you, its called Saudi Arabia. I like your jokes about planning for the future I know you don’t. If tomorrow the water supply went belly up you’re ass would be standing in line at the local story getting water for your family. You would then be counting on the public water works to make sure the water is cleaned up and safe to drink.

If I hear another Island Onto Myself line, I will personally offer you plane flight out of America to any location you want to go, you have to promise to never to return to America.

Selfish is not healthy. If you want to play those games go ahead but don’t ask for help because I know, we all know that day will come and you won’t be prepared.

Its ass-hats like these that make me want to leave America just so I don’t have to hear such BS.

Bottom line:

Middle class serfs are pemitting themselves to be pit against other middle class serfs in some vain notion that somehow by “chopping down” the salaries and benefits of other middle class workers, it’ll be this HUGE win for them (the rightwing ever-victimized taxpayer).

Frankly everyone in the middle class is in this together. We are ALL paying taxes, and we are ALL contributing to society in various ways.

Middle class teachers, the PD, the fire fighters, etc, are NOT the “enemy” who driving this nation into debt.

The people responsible for it are the Elites in the upper 2%: the bankers, the Wall Streeters, the Hedge funders, David Koch, Warren Buffet, Bill Gates, Steven Spielberg, Jerry Bruckheimer, Donald Trump, Mark Zuckerman, etc etc

Get a clue. The SCOTUS decision Citizen’s United gave unprecendeted power to corporations (and their owners). We are run as a Corporate Kleptocracy where the Bosses are making out like fat cats, and the rest of us running after crumbs and bones.

Pitting yourself against school teachers just makes those greedy bastards laugh their asses off, while they plan their next dirty little war. Why not reign down bombs on brown folks??? It makes the obscenely wealthy more and more money from YOUR (rightwing taxpayer) & MY (leftwing taxpayer) tax dollars.

Pitting yourselves against middle class workers is a mug’s game. You’ve been HAD… and the Elites are laughing all the way to their off-shore accounts with the BULK of YOUR tax dollars.

Get. a. Clue.

The main thing going on here is: CLASS WARFARE.

You have only the blinders that blind you to lose.

The Regressives want to destroy the public school system in every state in order to replace them with for-profit charter schools, much like the neoliberals did in New Orleans after Katrina. Charter schools can be depended upon to provide students with the basic readin’, ‘ritin’, and ‘rithmatic to work low wage jobs. The well-to-do and rich will send their kids to private schools, allowing them to go to college while everybody else works the service jobs.

Kris most of these morons are just like you working class, paycheck to paycheck, they aren’t saving anything. They don’t have a stockpile of food, they don’t have a gallons of fresh water and can’t survive without electricity.

I don’t think Amish are allowed to use the internet….

20% of all homes in FL are vacant. Prices are dropping like a stone but nobody’s going to buy a home where there’s no work outside of menial jobs and the schools suck. Tampa Bay’s unemployment rate is close to 15%.

Yep. That’s about right.

heh, well some of the Amish young use the Internet, and I think the Amish may even rely on public water supplies, they just don’t use electricity. They pay taxes, too.

I agree: most of these conservabloggers who come here to wag their fingers at us and tsk tsk our leftie “outrageous” expectations are living no better than anyone else. Why they wish to chop down those who are just other middle class folks trying to get by is another story in itself.

But they do love love love to victimize themselves and somehow see the dreaded “others” as somehow “getting something” or “ripping them off.”

It’s not the friggin’ school teachers who are friggin’ problem.

Get a clue.

No one is saying that pulic employees should not make a living wage. What we are saying is that their wages and benefits should be commensurate with people in private employment. Here in New Jersey,for the past 10 years or more,their raises in wages and their benefits have been far in excess of people in private employment and the long suffering property taxpayers(NJ has very high property taxes) have thrown up their hands and said it has got to stop.

This is why Gov.Christie was able to get the Democratic legislature to pass laws calling for mandatory contribution to health insurance of 1.5% of their salary,a cap of 2% on raises that arbitrators could award cops and firemen and a general 2% cap on the rise in property taxes.As I said,this was passed by huge margins by a Democratic majority legislature.

So the way to assure a living way for all is to force down wages and benefits for Public sector workers because businesses have successfully destroyed wages and benefits for private sectors workers over these past few decades.

Do you even see the disconnect in that?

Remember the guy whose house burned down in TN, iirc, because he didn’t pay the $75 annual fee for fire protection? The drive against public unions is the first stage of a plan to privatize those public services. With campaign promises of reducing property taxes the groundwork is laid for privatizing police/fire depts, etc. Lower property taxes won’t cover the costs of those services so the answer is privatization. Annual fees for fire, police etc that will be owned by private companies who will ensure that their contracts contain no price limitations.

On the federal level,you are quite correct,its not teachers,cops,firemen and other state and local public employees who are the problem. Its the Bush tax cuts,the Iraq multi trillion dollar disaster and the bloated military budget generally.

However,on the state and local level,it is most defintely the wages and benefits of public employees which are the main source of the fiscal problem.See my reply in 256 for what has been done in New Jersey to try to rectify the problem. And always remember that federal and state issues are quite different when it comes to fiscal matters.

Amen!

I’ll bet you live somewhere in the midwest where the cost of living is much lower than on the coasts.

Median is just that. Half the homes in the country cost more. In my town, and those adjoining, even in this market you can’t touch a house for under $350,000, and most are considerably higher.

$25. It was only $25, if memory serves.

Just had to make me go find it, din’tya? *g*

Each year, Obion County residents must pay $75 if they want fire protection from the city of South Fulton. But the Cranicks did not pay.

I think you’ve left the thread, but no, I wasn’t. By the time I moved to Royal Oak my kids were in college.

Saddest part is that he couldn’t get his dog out. House can be rebuilt but we can’t rebuild a pupper.

That whole situation was fucked. He offered to pay on the spot. The neighbor asked the firefighters to take care of Cranick’s house. It was just wrong.

But hey, Libertarian paradise, huh?

Poor puppy.

are you one of the ‘Drs’ involved in the ‘usgov/friends’ human observation/fuck with peoples minds program? your points are in ways very clinical and you are/seem very detached from real understanding/compassion for other ‘people’? was just wondering.. ;)

or NYC…

If HeadedWest has a PhD I’ll eat paper.

HeadedWest hasn’t responded yet. I wonder if that means he’s furiously scrambling to complete his correspondence course with Glenn Beck U…

I am not a lawyer, so I don’t know exactly what this all says’.. but …
‘Congress has never passed a law that gives corporations the same rights as citizens. There has never been a court – state, federal or supreme – that decided corporations are “persons” rather than “artificial persons.”‘
http://politicalcontext.org/law/2011/03/cold-case-democracy-part-one-breaking-and-entering/

To: Jon Walker

If you take out a couple dominate voices and responses to same this becomes quite incoherent.

It started out to be a very good post but was derailed by some more important than you.

Thanks for trying though.

OK – we get it? They are planning such harmful and immoral acts against us that they need to either a.) make them legal or b.) make it illegal for us to stop them or retaliate.

What is wisdom here folks?

They must be stopped.

yes…

It is the Walmart House of Representatives… yes indeed and then some.

***Check out ALEC at http://www.alec.org. This is the site where the states get legislation to copy and paste. It is the ugly machine behind the slaughter, or so I have been informed. If you have not been there or didn’t know-look now. Make sure you look at their history and their board and then the “Private Enterprise Board.” There are links to “Model Legislation” and state kits…..

And we have hired the Democrats to fight for us.

Well, they should have..I pay my dues …KNOWING that if I dont, there will be no fire protection. Dues, Taxes..the same thing. What, are you against paying your taxes???????

Federal employees cannot and I repeat cannot bargain for their benifits, nor strike

Annual fees and privatization is the way to go. Private companies = no unions = less costly benifits = annual fees lower that taxes for the same = lower taxes all the way around = more jobs
Equation works for me

take a closer look at the average time spent on the job for those teachers earning 75k or higher – they’ve been at their jobs for 10+ years or more. Anyone who’s been at the same job for that length of time should be earning that type of paycheck.

I’d be happy to pay your one way ticket to any country to which you want to move..This country was built on the idea of personal property rights and individual responsibility..collectivism is not an option

They’ve been trying to eliminate food stamps for strikers since the Reagan era. They’re just closer to succeeding. ‘Take the Oligarchy’s leftovers, however rotten, & be grateful, or we’ll let you starve’, is the intent of this legislation. I don’t understand why the Republicans think this will help out. Are they that stupid, or is this just the labour equivalent of ethnic cleansing? A hungry man is an angry man, said Bob Marley. No one within the GOP believes the Lessons learned in Egypt also apply to America. American anger is increasing exponentionally, & summer is coming in.The sound of marching feet has already been heard in Wisconsin. Are they deaf?

Are they deaf?

Yes, but not just the repubs, the Dems are hard of hearing too.

The fundamental issue with your equation is corporate tax rates, over the last 10 years, lower than ever before in history. We still don’t have enough jobs, and are in fact losing more.

The unions have been bullied by the bad economy created by the incompetence of the bankers. They have attempted to help out by agreeing to major benefit & wage cuts. But there has not been a quid pro quo. Management only knows how to take, not give.

Understood & agreed with.

Then I guess you won’t approve of sneaky Rick Snyder in Michigan. You will not have local rights now- state just took all of the power from local elected everything- when it so decides. A power grab. Conservatives are easy liars.

Part of living in a civilized society is the responsibility to that greater society, in addition to individual responsibilities. A society that is 100% every man for himself will soon break down into anarchy.

If you don’t like having responsibility to the greater society, there’s a libertarian wet dream waiting for you. Buy yourself a one way ticket to Somalia and you’ll be in libertarian heaven.

But if you insist on living here and profiting off of the labor of others or off of their ability to purchase any good/service you may be selling, then you have some responsibility back toward that society that allows you to make that profit.

I can’t believe you’re this naive so you must be repeating someone’s fantasy talking points about some unrealistic utopian libertarian paradise that is as unreal as the tooth fairy.

The most unsustainable entitlements have gone to the rich & corporations.

And unions should not give. Just when they figure it all out- there will be that new “law” that says they can’t react.

Public sector workers have been working to serve taxpayers all their careers. Without this work, there’d be death on the highways, rampant crime, disease & vermin everywhere, a vast majority of children unable to read. The private sector is far more lazy & inefficient. Take for instance a multi trillion dollar bailout for the very people who bankrupted the economy, given at almost zero interest, reinvestment at high interest rates offshore, a return of the principle with virtually no investment in job creation. You are paying infinitely more for this than you are for Public sector pensions. But I guess your fantasy is that one day you’ll be among the exploitative rich. Trust me –you won’t. Time to think, not quote your oppressor.

You would die without the public sector. I can’t see you managing a country of over 300 million citizens without help from the government. Your rich heroes are not here to help. They’re here to take without giving back fair value.

Of course it’s relevant. You criticise people whose jobs you characterise with negative stereotypes. Why are you afraid to say what you do? There’s no shame in being the guy who shoves the cotton into the aspirin bottles.

So you’ve never paid taxes? Does the IRS know about you? It seems like you’re one of those causing the deficit

Quit stinking up this site with your Chamber of Commerce bullshit.

Have pity on him for shouting. Maybe he hasn’t had time to disable the caps lock, because he’s too busy trying to run the bicycle generator which powers his own private infrastructure, free of government interference.

Its up to 8 applying for every single job…

I have no idea what you mean.Maybe its me. I’m tired. Everybody gives, but the richest give the least. Sorry about that

Willi-you’re right on. I meant that unions should be ahead of this R strategy. By the time they figure out that compromise means they give and give and that they should say no, the R’s will have passed a law to outlaw them.
Tired also. Have a good evening.

God yes. Unions are the force that ensured a professional work force which made American products the envy of the world. They’ve already given up virtually everything in the attempt to ensure equality with non- Union Brethren. Like the ’3o’s, Unions can be the force that Unites America. Look at Wisconsin. Good night to you , brother.

I see the right wing nutjobs are here testing out there talking points.

(Psssst alamode, headed west and random idiotsyou’re losing the argument because you can’t have it both ways)

When it comes to corporate overlords who make way more than the $75,000 the high end of teachers pay is the right argues “free market” and all that. Now all of a sudden you want to play “regulators” so that the above overlords don’t have to pay taxes. There isn’t a single middle class person with a lick of sense who’d not see the idiocy of arguing someone making even $75,000 shoulod have to sacrifce so that people making upwards of $250,000 don’t have to pay more.

be a pity if alamonde got ALS or some other crippling disease

pssssst
FORD CEO took home 60,000,000.00 bucks this year